4 ms·

Are you implying little Johnny isn't a real hero? He lived in a military camp in Baghdad for 4 months! He even had a gun pointed at him at one stage! I really

by sk0g 9y ago

Are you implying little Johnny isn't a real hero? He lived in a military camp in Baghdad for 4 months! He even had a gun pointed at him at one stage! I really don't get America's glorification of combat "veterans." In the old times, sure, but these are just people doing their jobs at the end of the day, and jobs that frequently involve killing people. I'm sure most people who sign up don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts, or for the sake of "peacekeeping."

secfirstmd 9y ago
As someone who has served in a European army infantry unit, I also find it very strange.
- kogepathic 9y ago
  Many European countries had or have mandatory military service. - Finland [0] - Germany (until 2011) [1] - Sweden (until 2010) [2] - Denmark [3] - France (until 1996) [4] - Greece [5] - Switzerland [6] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Finland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Finland [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Germany [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Sweden [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Denmark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Denmark [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_France [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Greece https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Greece [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Switzerland
0xbear 9y ago
To get the glorification you need to consider that those men and women are willingly exposing themselves to mortal danger. This kind of thing is hard to understand for someone who has spent all their life in an all white upper middle class neighborhood with not a worry in the world. The US foreign policy might be haphazard and misguided, but don’t you dare shit on the very real sacrifice these kids are making.
- yownie 9y ago
  and yet if the policy is so haphazard and misguided wouldn't it be better to steer them away from a completely a wasted sacrifice? Doubly so because their cost is measured in lives.
  - praneshp 9y ago
    > wouldn't it be better to steer them away from a completely a wasted sacrifice Pretty sure your OP is not opposed to that, but the "Little Johnny" language bullshit that his parent wrote.
    - libertyEQ 9y ago
      I took it as a reference to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Got_His_Gun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Got_His_Gun
  - 0xbear 9y ago
    Maybe it would, but that’s irrelevant. What’s relevant is that they are serving their country to a far greater extent than most, and I’m not going to blame them because there’s some neocon shithead giving them idiotic orders. They sure as hell aren’t doing it for money.
    - EliRivers 9y ago
      It's my understanding that many are doing it for the money and other benefits. The benefits are the stuff of dreams for many who join. Medical, dental, education, housing, pension, genuine advancement prospects, coupled with a steady job that won't vanish in a weekend. These are big draws, especially to a person whose other option is a zero hours contract at a chain store. I've been a reservist (non-US) for almost 20 years; I certainly am not in it for anything involving serving my country, although of course everyone has their own motivations.
- ixacto 9y ago
  Annd logging is about 3 times as likely to kill you than the military. https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/03/15/dying-for-a-paycheck-these-jobs-are-more-dangerous.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/03/15/dying-for-... Also there are many, many jobs in the military that do not go anywhere near combat.
brightball 9y ago
And their job involves indentured servitude punishable by law if they quit early. Just the act of joining means that for at least the minimum term of service the individual turns their life over in service to their country. Any other job doesn’t involve getting shipped overseas for service and being unable to quit. So yes, just the act of turning your life over to serve your country is pretty dang brave and absolutely not just another job.
- mbrameld 9y ago
  I feel like I was pretty fairly compensated for my time in the service. It's not like I was forced to join or had no idea what I was getting into. Also, outside of the deployments which were interesting if not fun, it wasn't much different from a normal job, so saying I turned my life over seems a little hyperbolic. I had most evenings and weekends free, 30 days of paid vacation a year, and unlimited sick days. Since getting out I have worked a job that involved both foreign travel and a contract that didn't allow me to quit without ramifications. That job wasn't associated with the military or DoD at all, it was at a bank. The military, at least for folks outside the combat arms jobs, really isn't that far off from being just another job.
- ionised 9y ago
  And yet if they offered you a way out, you would be able to quit once you realised the war you were fighting was utterly inexcusable and entirely in the interests of rich old fucks back home. You would never sell people on wars like this so you have to prohibit a way out. Can't have troops thinking critically and deciding they aren't totally sold on the cause.
mbrameld 9y ago
As a US combat veteran I agree with you, very few do it purely out of patriotism and altruism. I think most of the glorification comes from gratefulness that somebody else is willing to do a necessary and unpleasant job. The fact that the conflicts aren't necessary is slowly changing that, though. People used to be able to trust that the government would only commit us to necessary wars, so the feeling was that somebody had to go and fight and win or Something Really Bad would happen to the rest of us. In that context the glorification makes sense. Now it doesn't really feel like that anymore.
- Spearchucker 9y ago
  As a veteran of the border war I have zero understanding for the sentiment of "gratefulness that somebody else is willing to do a necessary and unpleasant job". I similarly struggle with the whole "lest we forget" thing in the UK. The reason is that in my opinion it legitimizes war, violence and killing. It promotes patriotism, which is nationalism by another name, and a bus stop short of fascism. Fundamentally it suggests that one nation's people are worth more than anothers'. It's a neat trick, and I have a real problem with that.
  - Banthum 9y ago
    It's doesn't have to mean one nation's people are worth more than another's. But it does mean that a person may care about their nation's people more than another's. This is the same principle as caring about your child more than a stranger's child. A nation is a kin group just like a family is. Ingroup preference is perfectly healthy when channeled appropriately.
    - ionised 9y ago
      > A nation is a kin group just like a family is. Given how divided some of the most jingoistic 'democractic' countries on the planet right now are (US and UK) I don't think that supposed kinship is what these people get from nationalism. To me, it looks like an excuse to tribally hate another group or nation without admitting to it.
brandnewlow 9y ago
How much would you need to be paid to have people shoot guns at you with intent to kill? I can't think of a number, personally. I see arguments for diminishing the significance of military service, but at end of day those who do it are signing up to (potentially) die to protect their country and that's worth special consideration.

by sk0g 9y ago

secfirstmd 9y ago

As someone who has served in a European army infantry unit, I also find it very strange.

kogepathic 9y ago
Many European countries had or have mandatory military service. - Finland [0] - Germany (until 2011) [1] - Sweden (until 2010) [2] - Denmark [3] - France (until 1996) [4] - Greece [5] - Switzerland [6] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Finland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Finland [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Germany [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Sweden [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Denmark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Denmark [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_France [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Greece https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Greece [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Switzerland

0xbear 9y ago

To get the glorification you need to consider that those men and women are willingly exposing themselves to mortal danger. This kind of thing is hard to understand for someone who has spent all their life in an all white upper middle class neighborhood with not a worry in the world. The US foreign policy might be haphazard and misguided, but don’t you dare shit on the very real sacrifice these kids are making.

yownie 9y ago
and yet if the policy is so haphazard and misguided wouldn't it be better to steer them away from a completely a wasted sacrifice? Doubly so because their cost is measured in lives.
- praneshp 9y ago
  > wouldn't it be better to steer them away from a completely a wasted sacrifice Pretty sure your OP is not opposed to that, but the "Little Johnny" language bullshit that his parent wrote.
  - libertyEQ 9y ago
    I took it as a reference to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Got_His_Gun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Got_His_Gun
- 0xbear 9y ago
  Maybe it would, but that’s irrelevant. What’s relevant is that they are serving their country to a far greater extent than most, and I’m not going to blame them because there’s some neocon shithead giving them idiotic orders. They sure as hell aren’t doing it for money.
  - EliRivers 9y ago
    It's my understanding that many are doing it for the money and other benefits. The benefits are the stuff of dreams for many who join. Medical, dental, education, housing, pension, genuine advancement prospects, coupled with a steady job that won't vanish in a weekend. These are big draws, especially to a person whose other option is a zero hours contract at a chain store. I've been a reservist (non-US) for almost 20 years; I certainly am not in it for anything involving serving my country, although of course everyone has their own motivations.
ixacto 9y ago
Annd logging is about 3 times as likely to kill you than the military. https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/03/15/dying-for-a-paycheck-these-jobs-are-more-dangerous.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/03/15/dying-for-... Also there are many, many jobs in the military that do not go anywhere near combat.

brightball 9y ago

And their job involves indentured servitude punishable by law if they quit early. Just the act of joining means that for at least the minimum term of service the individual turns their life over in service to their country. Any other job doesn’t involve getting shipped overseas for service and being unable to quit. So yes, just the act of turning your life over to serve your country is pretty dang brave and absolutely not just another job.

mbrameld 9y ago
I feel like I was pretty fairly compensated for my time in the service. It's not like I was forced to join or had no idea what I was getting into. Also, outside of the deployments which were interesting if not fun, it wasn't much different from a normal job, so saying I turned my life over seems a little hyperbolic. I had most evenings and weekends free, 30 days of paid vacation a year, and unlimited sick days. Since getting out I have worked a job that involved both foreign travel and a contract that didn't allow me to quit without ramifications. That job wasn't associated with the military or DoD at all, it was at a bank. The military, at least for folks outside the combat arms jobs, really isn't that far off from being just another job.
ionised 9y ago
And yet if they offered you a way out, you would be able to quit once you realised the war you were fighting was utterly inexcusable and entirely in the interests of rich old fucks back home. You would never sell people on wars like this so you have to prohibit a way out. Can't have troops thinking critically and deciding they aren't totally sold on the cause.

mbrameld 9y ago

As a US combat veteran I agree with you, very few do it purely out of patriotism and altruism. I think most of the glorification comes from gratefulness that somebody else is willing to do a necessary and unpleasant job. The fact that the conflicts aren't necessary is slowly changing that, though. People used to be able to trust that the government would only commit us to necessary wars, so the feeling was that somebody had to go and fight and win or Something Really Bad would happen to the rest of us. In that context the glorification makes sense. Now it doesn't really feel like that anymore.

Spearchucker 9y ago
As a veteran of the border war I have zero understanding for the sentiment of "gratefulness that somebody else is willing to do a necessary and unpleasant job". I similarly struggle with the whole "lest we forget" thing in the UK. The reason is that in my opinion it legitimizes war, violence and killing. It promotes patriotism, which is nationalism by another name, and a bus stop short of fascism. Fundamentally it suggests that one nation's people are worth more than anothers'. It's a neat trick, and I have a real problem with that.
- Banthum 9y ago
  It's doesn't have to mean one nation's people are worth more than another's. But it does mean that a person may care about their nation's people more than another's. This is the same principle as caring about your child more than a stranger's child. A nation is a kin group just like a family is. Ingroup preference is perfectly healthy when channeled appropriately.
  - ionised 9y ago
    > A nation is a kin group just like a family is. Given how divided some of the most jingoistic 'democractic' countries on the planet right now are (US and UK) I don't think that supposed kinship is what these people get from nationalism. To me, it looks like an excuse to tribally hate another group or nation without admitting to it.

brandnewlow 9y ago

How much would you need to be paid to have people shoot guns at you with intent to kill? I can't think of a number, personally. I see arguments for diminishing the significance of military service, but at end of day those who do it are signing up to (potentially) die to protect their country and that's worth special consideration.