12 ms·

> The $0.79 on the $1 shit has been debunked a million times yet is still persists for some reason. It persists because it's a real average. And uh, it's not

> The $0.79 on the $1 shit has been debunked a million times yet is still persists for some reason. It persists because it's a real average. And uh, it's not the case that the pay gap has been disproven in many industries.

seattle_spring 9y ago
Yes, it's a real average that proves that a female teacher makes less than a male mechanical engineer. How does that help anyone, other than pushing a false narrative?
- jldugger 9y ago
  Well, it might tell us the shape of discrimination is less overt and more structural. Why exactly was it that out of my CS graduating class of 100 there was 1 woman?
  - tomrod 9y ago
    Given the supplied anecdote, it is because 99 men and 1 woman completed the requirements for a CS degree, for whatever reasons the individuals decided go do so. Let's step aside the point of generalizing one anecdote to be representative, however. Can we really assign the disparity solely to microaggressions against women? Would we feel the same if the split were 75/25,or 51/49? What is the threshold of equality with respect to noise?
    - KirinDave 9y ago
      I don't... don't really get why the above poster's observation is not inline given national graduation rates for CS. Seems within the expected distribution, no? > Can we really assign the disparity solely to microaggressions against women? Would we feel the same if the split were 75/25,or 51/49? What is the threshold of equality with respect to noise? Why don't you use your powerful male thoughts to do some basic bayesian modeling and come up with some proposals? Many people have so maybe you can borrow their work, if that sounds like too much effort. But hey, to do an analysis we need some data! Let me provide you with a recent and impartial source: https://nsf.gov/statistics/2016/nsb20161/#/ https://nsf.gov/statistics/2016/nsb20161/#/ Here's a fun one: Stats suggest in the US that men:women declare majors ~3:1 across all engineering disciplines but ~2:1 in computer science at the outset. However, when we look at graduation rates proportional to the whole of their class in 2016 we saw: computer sciences (17.9%), engineering (19.3%), physical sciences (39%) and mathematics (43.1%). Computer science has an abnormally high attrition rate despite a increased chance of declaration for major. Other similarly complex and abstract disciplines such as mathematics (which CS leans upon heavily to get any real work done) do not have such a falloff. So gosh. Where do YOU draw the line? Care to show us the work for how you derived it? I'd love to know. I could probably get numbers for major vocational education startups. I think I might go pursue that. Since many of those are online, they'll have less noise from on-campus harassment.
    - jldugger 9y ago
      > Can we really assign the disparity solely to microaggressions against women? No. Did I suggest that? I don't think I did. All I mentioned was structural disparity, which is likely multivariate. Microaggressions is a strange thing to jump to from the conversation, compared to say, the effect of video game marketing on preferences, the attitudes of parents and guidance counselors, or parental fears about internet predators and private PCs for children. I don't have data readily available on this, but there weren't that many women declaring CS to start with, and I kind of expect that if we divided CS freshmen men into 'has written a program before' and 'has not', attrition rates for women would track the 'has not' fairly closely. > Would we feel the same if the split were 75/25,or 51/49? I don't know where the bright line is, and there probably isn't one. If it exists, it'd probably exist be between those to ratios. But the fact is it's more imbalanced than either ratio suggested, which should probably motivate policy changes more strongly.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - syshum 9y ago
    >>Why exactly was it that out of my CS graduating class of 100 there was 1 woman? Why are you not asking why out of 100 janitors, or 100 trash collectors there are only 1 women? I love how every time this subject somes up it is always how there is a lack of women in tech, never pluming, janitorial, auto mechanics, etc. Only Tech. Do you ask why there are are lack of men in Nursing? or a lack of Men in Childcare, social work, or any other field that has a majority of women doing those jobs? Further what does that have to do with the subject of the wage gap, which is defined as an employer paying a women less for the same work.
    - Mz 9y ago
      Housekeepers earned a median salary of $20,740 https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/maid-and-housekeeper/salary https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/maid-and-housekee... Median salary for a janitor: $28,064 http://www1.salary.com/Janitor-Salaries.html http://www1.salary.com/Janitor-Salaries.html Janitors tend to be male. Housekeepers tend to be female. It is similar work with a different name. This is really common. It has been documented that when a job becomes a predominantly female job, society tends to pay less than when it was a male job. The crux of the issue here is that no matter how you slice it and dice it, on average, women make less money than men. Arguing that it isn't really due to sexism and that women just have interests in fields that happen to pay less is a pretty crappy justification for a well documented, unarguable fact.
      - syshum 9y ago
        >>Janitors tend to be male. Housekeepers tend to be female. It is similar work with a different name Except it is not really the Same Job. Janitors tend to be the job title for Commercial, Industrial, and Business crews that do far more than just some light cleaning. For example the janitorial staff at my company operates medium duty equipment (Zamboni Style Scrubbers, polishers, large compactors, etc), has specialized training in hazard waste disposal, and does light maintenance tasks such as painting Housekeepers are an occupation that is mainly Residential the involves primary light duty cleaning with limited exposure to non-household type chemicals Calling the 2 jobs "similar" shows your ignorance of the occupations >Arguing that it isn't really due to sexism and that women just have interests in fields that happen to pay less is a pretty crappy justification for a well documented, unarguable fact. I believe I have, and will continue to argue these points, as they are not actually facts. That are ignorant statements with no basis in reality
- KirinDave 9y ago
  It tells us either: there are a handful of professions that are drawing down the average. OR: That a pervasive wage gap exists. Either is unacceptable, don't you agree? Why are you so eager to assert the labor of women is obviously worth less?
  - seattle_spring 9y ago
    > Why are you so eager to assert the labor of women is obviously worth less? What an insane and condescending assumption. I support focusing effort on training women for high paying jobs. I support researching why women don't study STEM degrees as much as men, and working to mitigate that gap. I do not, however, support paying those that study less valuable "feel-good" degrees more money just because more women choose to go down that path. And finally, I don't need to actively "support" women making the same as men within the same professions, because that's already the reality we live in.
  - sokoloff 9y ago
    I don't agree that every profession should make the same amount of money. If that's what you find unacceptable, I find it acceptable.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  Which false narrative is this? That women get paid less? If an average exists then an average exists. We can talk about how it's structured, but the existence of an average pay gap is hard to dispute at this point. If you find that narrative offensive, ask yourself why. I suspect the motivations are not very laudable.

seattle_spring 9y ago

Yes, it's a real average that proves that a female teacher makes less than a male mechanical engineer. How does that help anyone, other than pushing a false narrative?

jldugger 9y ago
Well, it might tell us the shape of discrimination is less overt and more structural. Why exactly was it that out of my CS graduating class of 100 there was 1 woman?
- tomrod 9y ago
  Given the supplied anecdote, it is because 99 men and 1 woman completed the requirements for a CS degree, for whatever reasons the individuals decided go do so. Let's step aside the point of generalizing one anecdote to be representative, however. Can we really assign the disparity solely to microaggressions against women? Would we feel the same if the split were 75/25,or 51/49? What is the threshold of equality with respect to noise?
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    I don't... don't really get why the above poster's observation is not inline given national graduation rates for CS. Seems within the expected distribution, no? > Can we really assign the disparity solely to microaggressions against women? Would we feel the same if the split were 75/25,or 51/49? What is the threshold of equality with respect to noise? Why don't you use your powerful male thoughts to do some basic bayesian modeling and come up with some proposals? Many people have so maybe you can borrow their work, if that sounds like too much effort. But hey, to do an analysis we need some data! Let me provide you with a recent and impartial source: https://nsf.gov/statistics/2016/nsb20161/#/ https://nsf.gov/statistics/2016/nsb20161/#/ Here's a fun one: Stats suggest in the US that men:women declare majors ~3:1 across all engineering disciplines but ~2:1 in computer science at the outset. However, when we look at graduation rates proportional to the whole of their class in 2016 we saw: computer sciences (17.9%), engineering (19.3%), physical sciences (39%) and mathematics (43.1%). Computer science has an abnormally high attrition rate despite a increased chance of declaration for major. Other similarly complex and abstract disciplines such as mathematics (which CS leans upon heavily to get any real work done) do not have such a falloff. So gosh. Where do YOU draw the line? Care to show us the work for how you derived it? I'd love to know. I could probably get numbers for major vocational education startups. I think I might go pursue that. Since many of those are online, they'll have less noise from on-campus harassment.
  - jldugger 9y ago
    > Can we really assign the disparity solely to microaggressions against women? No. Did I suggest that? I don't think I did. All I mentioned was structural disparity, which is likely multivariate. Microaggressions is a strange thing to jump to from the conversation, compared to say, the effect of video game marketing on preferences, the attitudes of parents and guidance counselors, or parental fears about internet predators and private PCs for children. I don't have data readily available on this, but there weren't that many women declaring CS to start with, and I kind of expect that if we divided CS freshmen men into 'has written a program before' and 'has not', attrition rates for women would track the 'has not' fairly closely. > Would we feel the same if the split were 75/25,or 51/49? I don't know where the bright line is, and there probably isn't one. If it exists, it'd probably exist be between those to ratios. But the fact is it's more imbalanced than either ratio suggested, which should probably motivate policy changes more strongly.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- syshum 9y ago
  >>Why exactly was it that out of my CS graduating class of 100 there was 1 woman? Why are you not asking why out of 100 janitors, or 100 trash collectors there are only 1 women? I love how every time this subject somes up it is always how there is a lack of women in tech, never pluming, janitorial, auto mechanics, etc. Only Tech. Do you ask why there are are lack of men in Nursing? or a lack of Men in Childcare, social work, or any other field that has a majority of women doing those jobs? Further what does that have to do with the subject of the wage gap, which is defined as an employer paying a women less for the same work.
  - Mz 9y ago
    Housekeepers earned a median salary of $20,740 https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/maid-and-housekeeper/salary https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/maid-and-housekee... Median salary for a janitor: $28,064 http://www1.salary.com/Janitor-Salaries.html http://www1.salary.com/Janitor-Salaries.html Janitors tend to be male. Housekeepers tend to be female. It is similar work with a different name. This is really common. It has been documented that when a job becomes a predominantly female job, society tends to pay less than when it was a male job. The crux of the issue here is that no matter how you slice it and dice it, on average, women make less money than men. Arguing that it isn't really due to sexism and that women just have interests in fields that happen to pay less is a pretty crappy justification for a well documented, unarguable fact.
    - syshum 9y ago
      >>Janitors tend to be male. Housekeepers tend to be female. It is similar work with a different name Except it is not really the Same Job. Janitors tend to be the job title for Commercial, Industrial, and Business crews that do far more than just some light cleaning. For example the janitorial staff at my company operates medium duty equipment (Zamboni Style Scrubbers, polishers, large compactors, etc), has specialized training in hazard waste disposal, and does light maintenance tasks such as painting Housekeepers are an occupation that is mainly Residential the involves primary light duty cleaning with limited exposure to non-household type chemicals Calling the 2 jobs "similar" shows your ignorance of the occupations >Arguing that it isn't really due to sexism and that women just have interests in fields that happen to pay less is a pretty crappy justification for a well documented, unarguable fact. I believe I have, and will continue to argue these points, as they are not actually facts. That are ignorant statements with no basis in reality
KirinDave 9y ago
It tells us either: there are a handful of professions that are drawing down the average. OR: That a pervasive wage gap exists. Either is unacceptable, don't you agree? Why are you so eager to assert the labor of women is obviously worth less?
- seattle_spring 9y ago
  > Why are you so eager to assert the labor of women is obviously worth less? What an insane and condescending assumption. I support focusing effort on training women for high paying jobs. I support researching why women don't study STEM degrees as much as men, and working to mitigate that gap. I do not, however, support paying those that study less valuable "feel-good" degrees more money just because more women choose to go down that path. And finally, I don't need to actively "support" women making the same as men within the same professions, because that's already the reality we live in.
- sokoloff 9y ago
  I don't agree that every profession should make the same amount of money. If that's what you find unacceptable, I find it acceptable.
KirinDave 9y ago
Which false narrative is this? That women get paid less? If an average exists then an average exists. We can talk about how it's structured, but the existence of an average pay gap is hard to dispute at this point. If you find that narrative offensive, ask yourself why. I suspect the motivations are not very laudable.