5 ms·

>you generally have to give your income. Well, you certainly don't have to give your "real" income. Aspirational income is fine.

by pravda 9y ago

chc 9y ago
Wouldn't applying for credit based on "aspirational" finances be fraud?
- ada1981 9y ago
  It generally asked your household income. This means many 18 year olds can report 6 or even 7 figure household incomes.
  - chc 9y ago
    I wouldn't call that an aspirational income, though — would you? That's just your real household income. It's also not an option for most adults, who are almost all older than 18.
  - darklajid 9y ago
    Putting aside the household income for a moment: "Many" being able to report 6 figure incomes seems quiiiiite a stretch to me, 7 seems insane. Do you have a source for this? Or can you define "many" some more?
    - sokoloff 9y ago
      A million or more 18-20 year olds could no doubt truthfully report 6-figure household income. To me, that's "many". (Slightly over a quarter of households in the US have a household income over $100K as reported on tax returns. Household income for the purposes of credit application can be meaningfully higher than for adjusted gross income tax return concerns.)
      - mmcclellan 9y ago
        That's actually an interesting stat. If there are ~115 million US households and 20% have > $100,000 income, that is ~23 million households. If 18-24 year olds make up ~9.5% of the population, and we 'assume' they are evenly distributed in these households, then this statement (well 18-24) could be true.
        sokoloff 9y ago
        Per this: https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator-2016/ https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator-201... it's 26.3% of households with incomes over $100K. I saw another estimate of 125 million households, so it could well be ~33 million households with >=$100K household income. (I'm not so much quibbling with numbers as trying to get across that "it's a lot of people")
  - astura 9y ago
    No you can't. The CARD Act of 2009 explicitly forbids this. You can't include anyone else's income if you are under 21. Even after you're 21 you're supposed to only include someone else's income if you have access to it. If your parents don't give you a stipend then you aren't supposed to include their income.
    - ada1981 9y ago
      Thanks!
- prostoalex 9y ago
  Not a lawyer, but for major credit lines lenders would generally want to see a few pay stubs and even tax returns, so seems like they’re using the data from the application form as a ballpark figure anyways.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    Not a lawyer, but they left their door unlocked, so I think it should be legal to just walk off with their stuff.
- pravda 9y ago
  Well, if you phoney up some W2s on your laser printer to apply for a mortgage, that might be a problem. But (on credit card applications) I've always put a 6-figure income in when asked. Even as a college student with an income of $0.
  - astura 9y ago
    FFS, that's called "fraud." Providing false information on a credit application is a criminal offense. Are you going to go to jail for it? Probably not, as long as you pay your bills. But it's 100% fraud and illegal and you can go to jail for it and people have. Also, your accounts would be closed if they found out that you lied on your application. American Express, in particular, is known to conduct financial reviews and shut down accounts who can't prove their income.
emodendroket 9y ago
You'll be in a lot of trouble if you ever default and provided "aspirational" income, or at least that is the impression I get from the text that accompanies such inquiries.
- astura 9y ago
  https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/buffalo/press-releases/2012/rochester-man-pleads-guilty-to-loan-application-fraud https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/buffalo/press-releases/201... >ROCHESTER, NY—U.S. Attorney William J. Hochul, Jr. announced today that David P. Gaylord, 51, of Rochester, New York, pleaded guilty to bank loan application fraud before the U.S. District Judge Charles J. Siragusa. The charge carries a maximum penalty of 30 years in prison a fine of $1,000,000. >Assistant U.S. Attorney Tiffany H. Lee, who is handling the case, stated that in 2006, while residing in the Western District of New York, the defendant submitted various credit card applications to Advanta Corp., Bank of America, and Family First Federal Credit Union. Gaylord knowingly provided false information regarding his income in order to obtain lines of credit from the banks and credit union. The defendant indicated that his income was anywhere between $90,000 to $122,000 when, in 2006, he reported to the Internal Revenue Service that his income was approximately $12,488. Gaylord ended up leaving outstanding balances on the various lines of credit and filed for bankruptcy.

>you generally have to give your income. Well, you certainly don't have to give your "real" income. Aspirational income is fine.

by pravda 9y ago

>you generally have to give your income. Well, you certainly don't have to give your "real" income. Aspirational income is fine.

chc 9y ago

Wouldn't applying for credit based on "aspirational" finances be fraud?

ada1981 9y ago
It generally asked your household income. This means many 18 year olds can report 6 or even 7 figure household incomes.
- chc 9y ago
  I wouldn't call that an aspirational income, though — would you? That's just your real household income. It's also not an option for most adults, who are almost all older than 18.
- darklajid 9y ago
  Putting aside the household income for a moment: "Many" being able to report 6 figure incomes seems quiiiiite a stretch to me, 7 seems insane. Do you have a source for this? Or can you define "many" some more?
  - sokoloff 9y ago
    A million or more 18-20 year olds could no doubt truthfully report 6-figure household income. To me, that's "many". (Slightly over a quarter of households in the US have a household income over $100K as reported on tax returns. Household income for the purposes of credit application can be meaningfully higher than for adjusted gross income tax return concerns.)
    - mmcclellan 9y ago
      That's actually an interesting stat. If there are ~115 million US households and 20% have > $100,000 income, that is ~23 million households. If 18-24 year olds make up ~9.5% of the population, and we 'assume' they are evenly distributed in these households, then this statement (well 18-24) could be true.
      - sokoloff 9y ago
        Per this: https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator-2016/ https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator-201... it's 26.3% of households with incomes over $100K. I saw another estimate of 125 million households, so it could well be ~33 million households with >=$100K household income. (I'm not so much quibbling with numbers as trying to get across that "it's a lot of people")
- astura 9y ago
  No you can't. The CARD Act of 2009 explicitly forbids this. You can't include anyone else's income if you are under 21. Even after you're 21 you're supposed to only include someone else's income if you have access to it. If your parents don't give you a stipend then you aren't supposed to include their income.
  - ada1981 9y ago
    Thanks!
prostoalex 9y ago
Not a lawyer, but for major credit lines lenders would generally want to see a few pay stubs and even tax returns, so seems like they’re using the data from the application form as a ballpark figure anyways.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  Not a lawyer, but they left their door unlocked, so I think it should be legal to just walk off with their stuff.
pravda 9y ago
Well, if you phoney up some W2s on your laser printer to apply for a mortgage, that might be a problem. But (on credit card applications) I've always put a 6-figure income in when asked. Even as a college student with an income of $0.
- astura 9y ago
  FFS, that's called "fraud." Providing false information on a credit application is a criminal offense. Are you going to go to jail for it? Probably not, as long as you pay your bills. But it's 100% fraud and illegal and you can go to jail for it and people have. Also, your accounts would be closed if they found out that you lied on your application. American Express, in particular, is known to conduct financial reviews and shut down accounts who can't prove their income.

emodendroket 9y ago

You'll be in a lot of trouble if you ever default and provided "aspirational" income, or at least that is the impression I get from the text that accompanies such inquiries.

astura 9y ago
https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/buffalo/press-releases/2012/rochester-man-pleads-guilty-to-loan-application-fraud https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/buffalo/press-releases/201... >ROCHESTER, NY—U.S. Attorney William J. Hochul, Jr. announced today that David P. Gaylord, 51, of Rochester, New York, pleaded guilty to bank loan application fraud before the U.S. District Judge Charles J. Siragusa. The charge carries a maximum penalty of 30 years in prison a fine of $1,000,000. >Assistant U.S. Attorney Tiffany H. Lee, who is handling the case, stated that in 2006, while residing in the Western District of New York, the defendant submitted various credit card applications to Advanta Corp., Bank of America, and Family First Federal Credit Union. Gaylord knowingly provided false information regarding his income in order to obtain lines of credit from the banks and credit union. The defendant indicated that his income was anywhere between $90,000 to $122,000 when, in 2006, he reported to the Internal Revenue Service that his income was approximately $12,488. Gaylord ended up leaving outstanding balances on the various lines of credit and filed for bankruptcy.