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I think all the questions you ask about Chomsky's methods and arguments Manufacturing Consent are reasonable concerns, and nearly every one of them is addressed

I think all the questions you ask about Chomsky's methods and arguments Manufacturing Consent are reasonable concerns, and nearly every one of them is addressed in the book. The manipulation he found is nowhere near comparable to what you'd expect from random chance. As for Waxman, I make no claim that she had evidence equivalent to what the current reporters had, nor does she make that claim. In fact, I claimed just the opposite: if the evidence had been that substantial, they would've had no choice but to run it. Besides, the only disincentive to do so — losing Weinstein's company's advertising dollars — would've been nullified by Weinstein's impending doom and loss of control over how that budget is spent, anyway. We can speculate as to just how solid her piece was, but it never ran. She claims to have "had evidence of a payoff," and also claims that she was told directly why the story was killed. So you can say you don't believe her, and I don't fault you for that, but her reasoning is not unsound. And again, this is just a red herring.

danso 9y ago
Her story did run, it was "gutted", not "killed": http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/13/business/media/miramax-sues-exchief-in-italy-saying-he-had-2-jobs.html http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/13/business/media/miramax-sue... If you meant, "the story that proved Weinstein was a sexual predator didn't run", sure, but that begs the question. That story didn't run because that story didn't exist -- inasmuch stories "exist" when reporters find the supporting evidence. But the story that did run is the kind of story that feels like the kind that Weinstein, if he had strong influence over the NYT's editorial desk, would kill. Because it was, as you say, the kind of story that is not too important to ignore. It's the opposite, it spotlights an otherwise obscure lawsuit about a minor Hollywood figure who is basically accused of embezzling from Miramax/Disney, a theft made possible by Weinstein's favoritism. If the NYT killed it, no one would really know or care because scandals about insignificant foreign film companies (Mirimax Italy) aren't the bread-and-butter for NYT's investigative team or Culture section. But Waxman herself says that her foreign-reporting trip was green-lighted even before she knew the extent of the allegations, or the possibility/difficulty of gathering evidence: > In 2004, I was still a fairly new reporter at The New York Times when I got the green light to look into oft-repeated allegations of sexual misconduct by Weinstein. It was believed that many occurred in Europe during festivals and other business trips there. I haven't worked at the Times, but I do feel comfortable saying that a "fairly new reporter" whose beat is Hollywood would not have the easiest time to convince bosses to fund a trip to Italy on an enterprise story that lacks hard evidence. But now we're supposed to believe that the NYT editors would approve such a project, during a time of falling revenue, in which the initial premise is that rumors of sexual scandal about their friend/secret-boss Weinstein are true? Even when it would be completely easy to just say No? To what end? I realize I'm writing a lot of words for your side note tangent, unrelated to Indonesia. But like I said, I haven't read Chomksy's book. But I would bet that the universe of facts and connections for arguing NYT/Weinstein complicity are far more accessible and direct than what Chomsky would use to argue for media+U.S+Indonesian massacres. But if Chomsky's hypothesis is so permissive/vague that a reader like yourself (whom I assume to be reasonable and thoughtful) could argue that it applies to NYT+Weinstein, despite the published evidence (including the facts in of Waxman's own accusatory essay) and reasonable application of Hanlon's and Occam's Razor, then I feel justified in thinking that Chomsky's hypothesis may not apply to the much more complicated situation of U.S.Gov+media+Indonesia. Or that it's not much of a useful hypothesis period for assessing world events/media fuckups in general.
- csallen 9y ago
  Again, nobody is claiming that Waxman had a story that "proved" Weinstein was a sexual predator. But she does claim to have a story that was much more significant than the one that ran, and for you to say that didn't exist is simply your word versus hers. You have your reasons for believing that she's lying, including that "she would not have the easiest time" convincing her bosses to fund a trip, that her editor claimed not to remember a conversation, that she injected Damon and Crowe into the story to add drama, etc. I do not find these reasons at all persuasive enough to conclude that she is lying. But it doesn't matter, because it's speculation on both of our parts anyway. If you're trying to use this particular instance to in any way judge Chomsky's book, then you're at a loss. At one extreme, Waxman made up her entire story and I was duped, in which case the conclusion is merely that this is not an example of an advertiser manipulating the media, and says nothing of Chomsky's evidence. At the other extreme, Waxman was telling the truth and Weinstein's role as an advertiser did allow him to get the story gutted. In that case, it's still insufficient to prove Chomsky's thesis. Which it was never meant to do in the first place, as it was merely presented as an illustrative example. A pointless discussion either way. You could probably read the relevant parts of Chomsky's book in the time we've spent here going back and forth on Waxman's believability.
  - danso 9y ago
    Just to be clear, I don't accuse Waxman of being a liar. She has a good reputation as a reporter and editor. Her recollection may be biased, but that's not malicious dishonesty. She has the same limits of memory and perspective as every other human being, her story should not be taken at face value, nor is it an all-for-nothing proposition in which her being fuzzy on one detail invalidates her entire story. The same applies to all the other players and witnesses. I agree that is futile for me to apply this topic to a book I haven't read, though I did just get a copy and have had time to skim things. I'm not sure what to argue against. I think Chomsky is absolutely right to point out that American news outlets focus on American issues from an American perspective, and that news outlets, being for-profit companies, live-and-die by advertisers. It's not at all a coincidence -- nor does it require a conspiracy -- that a news outlet's focus and coverage reflect that of its staff and publishers. You get a college-educated mostly white staff, you'll get a lot of stories that are relevant/understandable by that demographic, which may be an OK thing if that's the news outlet's entire readership, even as it skimps on a greater moral mission to represent society's minority. That's a valid critique, and the underlying incentives would seem to produce results that showed a consistent adherence to maintaining the status quo. I don't believe that Chomsky is the first to point this out (nor the first to do so in an empirical way), but if he's spreading the news about the realities of the news business, that's worthy enough work. But skimming down to things in which Chomsky attempts to point out their fit in his model is less convincing. He acknowledges the "shining moments' of journalism, such as reporting the My Lai Massacre and Watergate. Chomksy says in the conclusion: > In short, the very examples offered in praise of the media for their independence, or criticism of their excessive zeal, illustrate exactly the opposite. Contrary to the usual image of an "adversary press" boldly attacking a pitiful executive giant, the media's lack of interest, investigative zeal, and basic news reporting on the accumulating illegalities of the executive branch have regularly permitted and even encouraged ever larger violations of law But the media's action on My Lai and Watergate don't really seem to demonstrate the "exactly the opposite" of an adversarial media. The exact opposite would seem to be a media that doesn't report on these things at all. But the fact is that they did and Chomsky's explanation seems to boil down to: - The media didn't act as fast as it could (e.g. it didn't cover the My Lai massacre the day of or after it happened) - The supposed scandals weren't even that big of a deal, e.g. My Lai was just one of many atrocities committed by the U.S. The Watergate break-in was nothing compared to what the FBI was doing to the Socialist Workers party. - And the media didn't go far enough in its investigative reporting, e.g. if the media really cared about My Lai, then military officers higher than a Lieutenant would have been court-martialed. I think there is value in critiquing the lesser-celebrated details of media action/inaction, including lionized narratives of media's finest moments. But as something that purports to point out how media/government/industry complicity can explain all or even most of media's self-interested behavior? Chomsky's arguments seem virtually unfalsifiable. There is no possible unselfish/noble/independent media action that could not be waved away with his logic. But his logic is inherently self-defeating. My Lai and Watergate weren't a big deal, and the media were slow as fuck to finally cover them...OK, then that leaves completely explained why news outlets wasted considerable resources on stories that were not only inherently hostile to the U.S. government, but boring and stupid and not even significant compared to all the shit that was really happening. That argument is pretty airtight!

danso 9y ago

Her story did run, it was "gutted", not "killed": http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/13/business/media/miramax-sues-exchief-in-italy-saying-he-had-2-jobs.html http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/13/business/media/miramax-sue... If you meant, "the story that proved Weinstein was a sexual predator didn't run", sure, but that begs the question. That story didn't run because that story didn't exist -- inasmuch stories "exist" when reporters find the supporting evidence. But the story that did run is the kind of story that feels like the kind that Weinstein, if he had strong influence over the NYT's editorial desk, would kill. Because it was, as you say, the kind of story that is not too important to ignore. It's the opposite, it spotlights an otherwise obscure lawsuit about a minor Hollywood figure who is basically accused of embezzling from Miramax/Disney, a theft made possible by Weinstein's favoritism. If the NYT killed it, no one would really know or care because scandals about insignificant foreign film companies (Mirimax Italy) aren't the bread-and-butter for NYT's investigative team or Culture section. But Waxman herself says that her foreign-reporting trip was green-lighted even before she knew the extent of the allegations, or the possibility/difficulty of gathering evidence: > In 2004, I was still a fairly new reporter at The New York Times when I got the green light to look into oft-repeated allegations of sexual misconduct by Weinstein. It was believed that many occurred in Europe during festivals and other business trips there. I haven't worked at the Times, but I do feel comfortable saying that a "fairly new reporter" whose beat is Hollywood would not have the easiest time to convince bosses to fund a trip to Italy on an enterprise story that lacks hard evidence. But now we're supposed to believe that the NYT editors would approve such a project, during a time of falling revenue, in which the initial premise is that rumors of sexual scandal about their friend/secret-boss Weinstein are true? Even when it would be completely easy to just say No? To what end? I realize I'm writing a lot of words for your side note tangent, unrelated to Indonesia. But like I said, I haven't read Chomksy's book. But I would bet that the universe of facts and connections for arguing NYT/Weinstein complicity are far more accessible and direct than what Chomsky would use to argue for media+U.S+Indonesian massacres. But if Chomsky's hypothesis is so permissive/vague that a reader like yourself (whom I assume to be reasonable and thoughtful) could argue that it applies to NYT+Weinstein, despite the published evidence (including the facts in of Waxman's own accusatory essay) and reasonable application of Hanlon's and Occam's Razor, then I feel justified in thinking that Chomsky's hypothesis may not apply to the much more complicated situation of U.S.Gov+media+Indonesia. Or that it's not much of a useful hypothesis period for assessing world events/media fuckups in general.

csallen 9y ago
Again, nobody is claiming that Waxman had a story that "proved" Weinstein was a sexual predator. But she does claim to have a story that was much more significant than the one that ran, and for you to say that didn't exist is simply your word versus hers. You have your reasons for believing that she's lying, including that "she would not have the easiest time" convincing her bosses to fund a trip, that her editor claimed not to remember a conversation, that she injected Damon and Crowe into the story to add drama, etc. I do not find these reasons at all persuasive enough to conclude that she is lying. But it doesn't matter, because it's speculation on both of our parts anyway. If you're trying to use this particular instance to in any way judge Chomsky's book, then you're at a loss. At one extreme, Waxman made up her entire story and I was duped, in which case the conclusion is merely that this is not an example of an advertiser manipulating the media, and says nothing of Chomsky's evidence. At the other extreme, Waxman was telling the truth and Weinstein's role as an advertiser did allow him to get the story gutted. In that case, it's still insufficient to prove Chomsky's thesis. Which it was never meant to do in the first place, as it was merely presented as an illustrative example. A pointless discussion either way. You could probably read the relevant parts of Chomsky's book in the time we've spent here going back and forth on Waxman's believability.
- danso 9y ago
  Just to be clear, I don't accuse Waxman of being a liar. She has a good reputation as a reporter and editor. Her recollection may be biased, but that's not malicious dishonesty. She has the same limits of memory and perspective as every other human being, her story should not be taken at face value, nor is it an all-for-nothing proposition in which her being fuzzy on one detail invalidates her entire story. The same applies to all the other players and witnesses. I agree that is futile for me to apply this topic to a book I haven't read, though I did just get a copy and have had time to skim things. I'm not sure what to argue against. I think Chomsky is absolutely right to point out that American news outlets focus on American issues from an American perspective, and that news outlets, being for-profit companies, live-and-die by advertisers. It's not at all a coincidence -- nor does it require a conspiracy -- that a news outlet's focus and coverage reflect that of its staff and publishers. You get a college-educated mostly white staff, you'll get a lot of stories that are relevant/understandable by that demographic, which may be an OK thing if that's the news outlet's entire readership, even as it skimps on a greater moral mission to represent society's minority. That's a valid critique, and the underlying incentives would seem to produce results that showed a consistent adherence to maintaining the status quo. I don't believe that Chomsky is the first to point this out (nor the first to do so in an empirical way), but if he's spreading the news about the realities of the news business, that's worthy enough work. But skimming down to things in which Chomsky attempts to point out their fit in his model is less convincing. He acknowledges the "shining moments' of journalism, such as reporting the My Lai Massacre and Watergate. Chomksy says in the conclusion: > In short, the very examples offered in praise of the media for their independence, or criticism of their excessive zeal, illustrate exactly the opposite. Contrary to the usual image of an "adversary press" boldly attacking a pitiful executive giant, the media's lack of interest, investigative zeal, and basic news reporting on the accumulating illegalities of the executive branch have regularly permitted and even encouraged ever larger violations of law But the media's action on My Lai and Watergate don't really seem to demonstrate the "exactly the opposite" of an adversarial media. The exact opposite would seem to be a media that doesn't report on these things at all. But the fact is that they did and Chomsky's explanation seems to boil down to: - The media didn't act as fast as it could (e.g. it didn't cover the My Lai massacre the day of or after it happened) - The supposed scandals weren't even that big of a deal, e.g. My Lai was just one of many atrocities committed by the U.S. The Watergate break-in was nothing compared to what the FBI was doing to the Socialist Workers party. - And the media didn't go far enough in its investigative reporting, e.g. if the media really cared about My Lai, then military officers higher than a Lieutenant would have been court-martialed. I think there is value in critiquing the lesser-celebrated details of media action/inaction, including lionized narratives of media's finest moments. But as something that purports to point out how media/government/industry complicity can explain all or even most of media's self-interested behavior? Chomsky's arguments seem virtually unfalsifiable. There is no possible unselfish/noble/independent media action that could not be waved away with his logic. But his logic is inherently self-defeating. My Lai and Watergate weren't a big deal, and the media were slow as fuck to finally cover them...OK, then that leaves completely explained why news outlets wasted considerable resources on stories that were not only inherently hostile to the U.S. government, but boring and stupid and not even significant compared to all the shit that was really happening. That argument is pretty airtight!