6 ms·

Think of this article as describing the canary in the coal mine. The effect it describes is absolutely real. Universities in the US are facing serious issues.

by mhneu 9y ago

Think of this article as describing the canary in the coal mine. The effect it describes is absolutely real. Universities in the US are facing serious issues. The university system in the US is the envy of the world right now. But US universities are degrading on several fronts, some internal (rising tuition which drives out smart students from less well off families, most evident now in law schools) and some external (cuts in government funding, most evident in Wisconsin GOP donor attacks on universities and public education more generally[1].) There are some posts below from students who say they don't see much going wrong. Yes, they don't see much going wrong yet. But the underpinnings of universities are being eroded. Research funding is harder to get. NIH and NSF budgets are down 20-30% in real dollars in the past two decades. Meanwhile schools are expanding and hiring more faculty and staff that are supposed to obtain their salaries from NIH and NSF. At the same time the long-held commitment to educating the best students is fading [2]. [1] "Hacked records show Bradley Foundation taking its conservative Wisconsin model national" https://projects.jsonline.com/news/2017/5/5/hacked-records-show-bradley-foundation-taking-wisconsin-model-national.html https://projects.jsonline.com/news/2017/5/5/hacked-records-s... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/book-review-failing-law-schools-by-brian-z-tamanaha/2012/08/03/e7054c9c-c6df-11e1-916d-a4bc61efcad8_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/book-review-failing-... "If you think those claims sting, consider Tamanaha’s argument that law school effectively transfers money from students to relatively well-to-do professors, via student-loan debt — much of which is ultimately guaranteed by federal taxpayers who are generally not as well-off as the typical law professor. Law school faculties are also bastions of liberal politics, and this irony is not lost on Tamanaha, who accuses the professoriate of not only enriching itself but also erecting de facto barriers to upward social mobility and true public-service law practice, all in the name of “academic freedom” and other abstractions."

baron816 9y ago
Your point about rising tuition driving out less well off families is also a result of reduced government funding. Research should never be funded by tuition anyway. That research is a public good, the burden for funding it should not be placed on the backs of the nations youth, who have to in turn finance that tuition with debt. It's a shame that one political party in this country has taken to believing that all of the world's problems can be solved with lower taxes (not low taxes, lowER taxes). Externalities and public goods do not exist.
- pragmatic12 9y ago
  It seems clear that easy money (anyone can get student loans) is the primary driver of rising tuition costs (driving out less well off families) not reduced government funding. http://images.mic.com/gcnmd1o6fihnkyh0kgimslfoombvuel882tmhohvkeevifezxnbckipfamtbpvvx.jpg http://images.mic.com/gcnmd1o6fihnkyh0kgimslfoombvuel882tmho... https://www.google.com/search?q=rising+education+costs&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_tPTMufvWAhUnllQKHdJCAxgQ_AUICigB&biw=1920&bih=940#imgrc=FXR8HQljRmAnaM https://www.google.com/search?q=rising+education+costs&sourc...:
  - allenz 9y ago
    It isn't clear to me. Your links only show that student debt and tuition costs are correlated. I think that costs cause debt rather than vice versa.
    - acjohnson55 9y ago
      It's not just debt, it's the fact that the debt is effectively unlimited. The problem is that we want an education market but also for no one to be priced out of higher ed. So we provide easy credit, and there's consequently no brake on costs.
      - allenz 9y ago
        That is a matter of political interpretation. You aren't wrong, but your solution of reducing the availability of loans has the direct consequence of reducing access to education for poor people and reducing university budgets funded by that debt. I don't like these consequences. My solution is to increase government investment in education which is why I view reduced funding as the main driver of tuition costs. I believe this partly because I believe that a college education can be worth a million dollars, because it can increase salary by $80k/yr, not to mention the non-economic personal and societal benefits.
        aaron-lebo 9y ago
aswanson 9y ago
The US, for whatever reason, has given up on the concepts of "public good" and long-term thinking. Perhaps this is a product of quarterly profits taking center stage in capitalism, perhaps it is a loss of vision, or a confluence of factors. Whatever the reason, the fact that an 18-year old is expected to take on a debt of around 280K for a bachelors degree from a decent, but non-exceptional university like USC speaks volumes about the non-sustainability of the US higher-ed system.
- replicatorblog 9y ago
  The average student debt for an undergrad in the US is ~$37K. Few students pay the full rack rate. Most of the six-figure debt loads reported in the media are inflated by grad school debt. It is possible to incur large debt loads by going to premium university/spas like USC, but it's also possible to get a college education from a solid public college for the price of a mid-sized sedan.
  - robotresearcher 9y ago
    If you do a PhD in CS at USC it’s very likely your tuition and basic living costs will be covered by your advisor. Film school, med school and law school not so much.
- rxhernandez 9y ago
  Since when was USC not exceptional?
  - aswanson 9y ago
    You're right. It is. Still too high of a bill, though.
diogenescynic 9y ago
>The university system in the US is the envy of the world right now. Not really. It's built on a unsustainable model of student debt. This bomb has been building for generations and when it goes off who knows what it will wipe out. Meanwhile, a lot of public universities have dipped in quality and don't seem as focused on education. Classes are run by adjunct professors or grad students while the students pay far more than other students in other counties. The massive increase in price and decrease in quality will eventually cause some kind of reaction--probably either fewer people going to college or colleges being forced to cut tuition to keep their current numbers.
lz400 9y ago
Under which conditions does one need a student loan to go to college in the US? I was explained once here that this is not as much of a problem as it is made to be and there're plenty of public universities that are accessible. Is it just the ivy league ones that require exorbitant fees?
- greedo 9y ago
  Most? Even state schools are expensive now. My state's primary university charges over $10K in tuition alone for in-state students. Add housing, food and books, and you're looking at $80K before any type of scholarships/grants.
  - jdhn 9y ago
    Housing, food, and books results in a $70k raise? Is this for in-state students who attend for 4 years, or just 1 year?
    - greedo 9y ago
      $80k would be for four years of study.
- steverb 9y ago
  Consider the University of Tennessee, a state school in an inexpensive part of the country. Cost of attendance paying in state tuition is $24,000 to $28,000 depending on which web site you get your data from. How is a full-time student going to pay that without going into debt? http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg03_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1545 http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg03_tmpl...
  - lz400 9y ago
    That's 24K a year?

by mhneu 9y ago

baron816 9y ago

Your point about rising tuition driving out less well off families is also a result of reduced government funding. Research should never be funded by tuition anyway. That research is a public good, the burden for funding it should not be placed on the backs of the nations youth, who have to in turn finance that tuition with debt. It's a shame that one political party in this country has taken to believing that all of the world's problems can be solved with lower taxes (not low taxes, lowER taxes). Externalities and public goods do not exist.

pragmatic12 9y ago
It seems clear that easy money (anyone can get student loans) is the primary driver of rising tuition costs (driving out less well off families) not reduced government funding. http://images.mic.com/gcnmd1o6fihnkyh0kgimslfoombvuel882tmhohvkeevifezxnbckipfamtbpvvx.jpg http://images.mic.com/gcnmd1o6fihnkyh0kgimslfoombvuel882tmho... https://www.google.com/search?q=rising+education+costs&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_tPTMufvWAhUnllQKHdJCAxgQ_AUICigB&biw=1920&bih=940#imgrc=FXR8HQljRmAnaM https://www.google.com/search?q=rising+education+costs&sourc...:
- allenz 9y ago
  It isn't clear to me. Your links only show that student debt and tuition costs are correlated. I think that costs cause debt rather than vice versa.
  - acjohnson55 9y ago
    It's not just debt, it's the fact that the debt is effectively unlimited. The problem is that we want an education market but also for no one to be priced out of higher ed. So we provide easy credit, and there's consequently no brake on costs.
    - allenz 9y ago
      That is a matter of political interpretation. You aren't wrong, but your solution of reducing the availability of loans has the direct consequence of reducing access to education for poor people and reducing university budgets funded by that debt. I don't like these consequences. My solution is to increase government investment in education which is why I view reduced funding as the main driver of tuition costs. I believe this partly because I believe that a college education can be worth a million dollars, because it can increase salary by $80k/yr, not to mention the non-economic personal and societal benefits.
      - aaron-lebo 9y ago

aswanson 9y ago

The US, for whatever reason, has given up on the concepts of "public good" and long-term thinking. Perhaps this is a product of quarterly profits taking center stage in capitalism, perhaps it is a loss of vision, or a confluence of factors. Whatever the reason, the fact that an 18-year old is expected to take on a debt of around 280K for a bachelors degree from a decent, but non-exceptional university like USC speaks volumes about the non-sustainability of the US higher-ed system.

replicatorblog 9y ago
The average student debt for an undergrad in the US is ~$37K. Few students pay the full rack rate. Most of the six-figure debt loads reported in the media are inflated by grad school debt. It is possible to incur large debt loads by going to premium university/spas like USC, but it's also possible to get a college education from a solid public college for the price of a mid-sized sedan.
- robotresearcher 9y ago
  If you do a PhD in CS at USC it’s very likely your tuition and basic living costs will be covered by your advisor. Film school, med school and law school not so much.
rxhernandez 9y ago
Since when was USC not exceptional?
- aswanson 9y ago
  You're right. It is. Still too high of a bill, though.

diogenescynic 9y ago

>The university system in the US is the envy of the world right now. Not really. It's built on a unsustainable model of student debt. This bomb has been building for generations and when it goes off who knows what it will wipe out. Meanwhile, a lot of public universities have dipped in quality and don't seem as focused on education. Classes are run by adjunct professors or grad students while the students pay far more than other students in other counties. The massive increase in price and decrease in quality will eventually cause some kind of reaction--probably either fewer people going to college or colleges being forced to cut tuition to keep their current numbers.

lz400 9y ago

Under which conditions does one need a student loan to go to college in the US? I was explained once here that this is not as much of a problem as it is made to be and there're plenty of public universities that are accessible. Is it just the ivy league ones that require exorbitant fees?

greedo 9y ago
Most? Even state schools are expensive now. My state's primary university charges over $10K in tuition alone for in-state students. Add housing, food and books, and you're looking at $80K before any type of scholarships/grants.
- jdhn 9y ago
  Housing, food, and books results in a $70k raise? Is this for in-state students who attend for 4 years, or just 1 year?
  - greedo 9y ago
    $80k would be for four years of study.
steverb 9y ago
Consider the University of Tennessee, a state school in an inexpensive part of the country. Cost of attendance paying in state tuition is $24,000 to $28,000 depending on which web site you get your data from. How is a full-time student going to pay that without going into debt? http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg03_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1545 http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg03_tmpl...
- lz400 9y ago
  That's 24K a year?