4 ms·

If you, personally, are freely willing to pay for it, wouldn't it be better if you could be able to do it of your own free will and not forced to do it?

ashark 9y ago
Voluntary action and overcoming coordination problems don't mix well. Best case is the volunteers overpay tremendously for things that benefit a ton of free-riders (those who benefit, and could pay, but choose not to). Worst case it all falls apart and we invent government to compel cooperation and then crush/conquer any societies that don't follow suit and remain awful, disorganized messes.
ProfessorLayton 9y ago
Thats not at all how taxes work, nor should they.
- golergka 9y ago
  And that's exactly my point – taxes are money taken by force, while the parent comment somehow talks about how he doesn't mind this money well-spent. If you don't have a choice about something, it's not your free decision, even you happen to like the outcome.
  - rosser 9y ago
    You absolutely should have a choice. But if you did, and don't pay taxes, you shouldn't get to benefit from the things those taxes pay for. "Why should I have to pay for a fire department? My house isn't on fire..."
    - munk-a 9y ago
      You should not a) Because people are selfish idiots b) Because society functions on compromises c) Because your house being on fire increases the probability of your neighbor's house being on fire.
      - rosser 9y ago
        My position is that people who think "taxes are theft" should have to face a world where the things those taxes pay for aren't available to them. I'm pretty sure, with, as Einstein put it, "a probability approaching unity", that they would change their minds very quickly about whether those things are worth supporting. It's a purely rhetorical position, of course; I do not actually advocate anyone suffer that experience — because it would be a thing they could only suffer. EDIT: I'm reminded again of the rural, dues-based fire departments. You're free not to pay your dues. If your house catches fire and you haven't paid, the fire crew will come out, stop at your property line, keep the fire from spreading, and otherwise watch your shit burn. Libertarian paradise, or something...
        munk-a 9y ago
        My apologies if my comment was abrasive, my objection, though, is that pandering to this libertarian slice of the populace ends up costing society more. On a small scale that dues-based fire department might work fine "Oh, it's at frank's house, yea... he'll be surprised" but when you reach a state or country level tracking any sort of voluntary pay-in programs gets complicated and a sane efficient state would find it cheaper to just save frank's house anyways, because the cost of tracking who is who is more expensive than occasionally paying out fraudulently. This is one of the good motivations for universal basic income, a lot of our social programs have grown to the point where their overhead is getting ridiculous but the solution isn't ending the program, it's cutting any inefficiencies we can find and simplifying the program in a fair manner to get more money to where it needs to go.
    - golergka 9y ago
      I think that this started as an argument about a specific thing that taxes are spent on – fighting income inequality. But now you have identified (mistakenly, by the way) the political ideology that, as you think, stands behind my opinions, and are arguing against this political ideology as a whole. Can we agree on fire departments, roads and military and get back to discussing welfare state, please? Edit: oh, and by the way, just as lighthouses were actually built by private organizations in Adam Smith's time, 70% of US firefighters are volunteers.
      - rosser 9y ago
        It's interesting that you invoke Adam Smith, given how strongly in favor of redistributive policies he was. EDIT: As for specific things that taxes should pay for, no, I don't think there's a lot of room for agreement. I know a nontrivial number of people who sincerely believe that roads, for example, should be wholly privatized. You and I may think fire departments and roads matter, but we aren't the only parties to that debate. We don't get to decide for them. I personally don't want the fruits of my labor, in the form of taxes, being used to bomb civilians (specifically, non-combatants) on the other side of the planet. I don't get that say, and I find murder far more repugnant than "theft". How do you reconcile that? Should I be "forced" to pay for blowing up women and children over there, while you think having to materially support the poorest in your own country is an imposition — even immoral? How is that in any way in keeping with a philosophy of individual liberty?
        golergka 9y ago
        > It's interesting that you invoke Adam Smith, given how strongly in favor of redistributive policies he was. That's exactly my point - he used lighthouses as an example for redistribution through government, and he was famously wrong, as lighthouses were not primarily built by the government. So this is very similar to using fire departments now. > How do you reconcile that? Should I be "forced" to pay for blowing up women and children over there, while you think having to materially support the poorest in your own country is an imposition — even immoral? How is that in any way in keeping with a philosophy of individual liberty? I see a lot of criticism to US military involvement that takes only lost lives into account and does not even try to calculate all the lives, lost and saved, to see if utility function ends up above or below zero. Therefore, I can't take this arguments seriously.
pm90 9y ago
No, because If I'm completely honest, I want my society to improve but I don't want to spend all my free time looking through a catalog of projects which require funding and choose that. I would rather delegate that job to people who can do that full time.
- golergka 9y ago
  Then let's talk about a law that would allow you to voluntarily raise your personal taxes. Instead, we're talking about forcibly taking money from people.
  - uoaei 9y ago
    Did that money come into their hands completely voluntarily? Likely not. When you buy something you need to survive, can that be said to be a "voluntary" purchase? So when that money ends up in the hands of the owners of the productive machines, they get rich, but are they doing so because of purely "voluntary" participation in the economy? So then why do I have to pay private individuals for things I need to live, and they don't have to pay back into the system that gave them the infrastructure to earn this money in the first place?
    - golergka 9y ago
      These arguments would be true if most of our economy and transactions would indeed be centered on things we absolutely need to survive, and the difference between being able to pay and not would be life and death. It's not. Surviving in any modern first (or even second) world society is laughably easy. So I think we can safely describe most of the transactions as being "voluntary", yes.
    - mcbruiser3 9y ago
      > Did that money come into their hands completely voluntarily? Yes, if it's in the form of an investment. An investment is a risk, and like it or not, investments are a vital part of any economy. In may cases investments are how small businesses and entrepreneurs get capitalized because banks are much more risk averse. So why punish such a critical segment of the economy? You'll only end up moving the money into other areas that have less benefit for the rest of society.
SigmundA 9y ago
I never got the taken by force argument. Is your mortgage or rent taken by force? There are places in this world that to do not collect tax and you are free to go there. So long as you are allowed to leave, you have a choice otherwise you have implicitly agreed to the social contract to pay taxes by staying and benefit from being within the protected borders of the government and all service provided therein.
- tooltalk 9y ago
  Sure, and our current social contract says you pay less in taxes if you are super wealthy. There are places in this world where the rich are taxed to death, you are free to leave and settle in such utopia. Is that what you are saying?
  - SigmundA 9y ago
    I made no statement about the "super wealthy". I was simply arguing that taxes are not in fact taken by force (at least in the US where citizens are free to emigrate). Your hyperbolic example of places "where the rich are taxed to death" also seems to confirm the argument that choice is available.

ashark 9y ago

Voluntary action and overcoming coordination problems don't mix well. Best case is the volunteers overpay tremendously for things that benefit a ton of free-riders (those who benefit, and could pay, but choose not to). Worst case it all falls apart and we invent government to compel cooperation and then crush/conquer any societies that don't follow suit and remain awful, disorganized messes.

ProfessorLayton 9y ago

Thats not at all how taxes work, nor should they.

golergka 9y ago
And that's exactly my point – taxes are money taken by force, while the parent comment somehow talks about how he doesn't mind this money well-spent. If you don't have a choice about something, it's not your free decision, even you happen to like the outcome.
- rosser 9y ago
  You absolutely should have a choice. But if you did, and don't pay taxes, you shouldn't get to benefit from the things those taxes pay for. "Why should I have to pay for a fire department? My house isn't on fire..."
  - munk-a 9y ago
    You should not a) Because people are selfish idiots b) Because society functions on compromises c) Because your house being on fire increases the probability of your neighbor's house being on fire.
    - rosser 9y ago
      My position is that people who think "taxes are theft" should have to face a world where the things those taxes pay for aren't available to them. I'm pretty sure, with, as Einstein put it, "a probability approaching unity", that they would change their minds very quickly about whether those things are worth supporting. It's a purely rhetorical position, of course; I do not actually advocate anyone suffer that experience — because it would be a thing they could only suffer. EDIT: I'm reminded again of the rural, dues-based fire departments. You're free not to pay your dues. If your house catches fire and you haven't paid, the fire crew will come out, stop at your property line, keep the fire from spreading, and otherwise watch your shit burn. Libertarian paradise, or something...
      - munk-a 9y ago
        My apologies if my comment was abrasive, my objection, though, is that pandering to this libertarian slice of the populace ends up costing society more. On a small scale that dues-based fire department might work fine "Oh, it's at frank's house, yea... he'll be surprised" but when you reach a state or country level tracking any sort of voluntary pay-in programs gets complicated and a sane efficient state would find it cheaper to just save frank's house anyways, because the cost of tracking who is who is more expensive than occasionally paying out fraudulently. This is one of the good motivations for universal basic income, a lot of our social programs have grown to the point where their overhead is getting ridiculous but the solution isn't ending the program, it's cutting any inefficiencies we can find and simplifying the program in a fair manner to get more money to where it needs to go.
  - golergka 9y ago
    I think that this started as an argument about a specific thing that taxes are spent on – fighting income inequality. But now you have identified (mistakenly, by the way) the political ideology that, as you think, stands behind my opinions, and are arguing against this political ideology as a whole. Can we agree on fire departments, roads and military and get back to discussing welfare state, please? Edit: oh, and by the way, just as lighthouses were actually built by private organizations in Adam Smith's time, 70% of US firefighters are volunteers.
    - rosser 9y ago
      It's interesting that you invoke Adam Smith, given how strongly in favor of redistributive policies he was. EDIT: As for specific things that taxes should pay for, no, I don't think there's a lot of room for agreement. I know a nontrivial number of people who sincerely believe that roads, for example, should be wholly privatized. You and I may think fire departments and roads matter, but we aren't the only parties to that debate. We don't get to decide for them. I personally don't want the fruits of my labor, in the form of taxes, being used to bomb civilians (specifically, non-combatants) on the other side of the planet. I don't get that say, and I find murder far more repugnant than "theft". How do you reconcile that? Should I be "forced" to pay for blowing up women and children over there, while you think having to materially support the poorest in your own country is an imposition — even immoral? How is that in any way in keeping with a philosophy of individual liberty?
      - golergka 9y ago
        > It's interesting that you invoke Adam Smith, given how strongly in favor of redistributive policies he was. That's exactly my point - he used lighthouses as an example for redistribution through government, and he was famously wrong, as lighthouses were not primarily built by the government. So this is very similar to using fire departments now. > How do you reconcile that? Should I be "forced" to pay for blowing up women and children over there, while you think having to materially support the poorest in your own country is an imposition — even immoral? How is that in any way in keeping with a philosophy of individual liberty? I see a lot of criticism to US military involvement that takes only lost lives into account and does not even try to calculate all the lives, lost and saved, to see if utility function ends up above or below zero. Therefore, I can't take this arguments seriously.

pm90 9y ago

No, because If I'm completely honest, I want my society to improve but I don't want to spend all my free time looking through a catalog of projects which require funding and choose that. I would rather delegate that job to people who can do that full time.

golergka 9y ago
Then let's talk about a law that would allow you to voluntarily raise your personal taxes. Instead, we're talking about forcibly taking money from people.
- uoaei 9y ago
  Did that money come into their hands completely voluntarily? Likely not. When you buy something you need to survive, can that be said to be a "voluntary" purchase? So when that money ends up in the hands of the owners of the productive machines, they get rich, but are they doing so because of purely "voluntary" participation in the economy? So then why do I have to pay private individuals for things I need to live, and they don't have to pay back into the system that gave them the infrastructure to earn this money in the first place?
  - golergka 9y ago
    These arguments would be true if most of our economy and transactions would indeed be centered on things we absolutely need to survive, and the difference between being able to pay and not would be life and death. It's not. Surviving in any modern first (or even second) world society is laughably easy. So I think we can safely describe most of the transactions as being "voluntary", yes.
  - mcbruiser3 9y ago
    > Did that money come into their hands completely voluntarily? Yes, if it's in the form of an investment. An investment is a risk, and like it or not, investments are a vital part of any economy. In may cases investments are how small businesses and entrepreneurs get capitalized because banks are much more risk averse. So why punish such a critical segment of the economy? You'll only end up moving the money into other areas that have less benefit for the rest of society.

SigmundA 9y ago

I never got the taken by force argument. Is your mortgage or rent taken by force? There are places in this world that to do not collect tax and you are free to go there. So long as you are allowed to leave, you have a choice otherwise you have implicitly agreed to the social contract to pay taxes by staying and benefit from being within the protected borders of the government and all service provided therein.

tooltalk 9y ago
Sure, and our current social contract says you pay less in taxes if you are super wealthy. There are places in this world where the rich are taxed to death, you are free to leave and settle in such utopia. Is that what you are saying?
- SigmundA 9y ago
  I made no statement about the "super wealthy". I was simply arguing that taxes are not in fact taken by force (at least in the US where citizens are free to emigrate). Your hyperbolic example of places "where the rich are taxed to death" also seems to confirm the argument that choice is available.