10 ms·

Why is computer science a sausage fest?

80 points by limedaring 16y ago

gwern 16y ago
As usual, I like Philip Greenspun's explanation better than all of the anecdotes and fuzzy generalizations in this blog post: http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/acm-women-in-computing http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/acm-women-in-computing http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science tl;dr: It's because the women who would do well in CS/STEM have much better paying, or easier, or more prestigious options available to them.
- mattdw 16y ago
  …or, you know, the directly hostile and sexist things women sometimes experience in the industry. As described in the original post. Not to say that Greenspun is wrong in his conclusions, but when women are saying "I find it unpleasant to be in the industry because…", it seems kinda patronising to turn around and suggest that they're wrong.
  - btn 16y ago
    It's not saying that they're wrong, but that there are factors beside sexism and bigotry that contribute to the problem.
  - Tichy 16y ago
    To experience the sexist things, you would first have to enter the industry, though. I somewhat doubt it is a good explanation. Also, is life in CS really so unbearable for Stubbornella and other women?
- AndyKelley 16y ago
  The problem I have with that logic is, why wouldn't men decide the same thing? The author's reasoning seems to be 1. young men strive to achieve high status among their peer group 2. men tend to lack perspective and are unable to step back and ask the question "is this peer group worth impressing?" but I ask, why? The article seems to be rejecting the idea that men are naturally better than women at programming (and some other ideas) and embracing the idea that women are naturally better than men at finding a suitable career. I suppose this is just as valid of a hypothesis, but I don't think it is good enough to simply dismiss the other one.
  - Tichy 16y ago
    For one thing, achieving high status might not be so relevant for a woman. A womb is inherently valuable, whereas men have to prove by status that they can take care of a child. Or rather, in theory one high status male can make babies with a lot of low status women. It may not quite work that way anymore in todays society (? I am not high status enough to know), but it might still be genetically driving our behavior.
    - cabalamat 16y ago
      > It may not quite work that way anymore in todays society Whether or not this is true today is irrelevant; what matters is whether it was true in the environment of evolutionary adaptation.
  - gwern 16y ago
    > men are naturally better than women at programming (and some other ideas) and embracing the idea that women are naturally better than men at finding a suitable career. If it's plausible enough that millions of young women can have their career and life choices distorted away from STEM by a little sexism (a distortion in the dozens or scores of percents), then why isn't it even more plausible that millions of young men can suffer from well-known traits linked with autism or Asperger's (which are known to be vastly more common in males) and make choices distorted towards STEM?
    - derefr 16y ago
      It's not that they're not equally plausible; it's that they're not equally solvable. We can "fix" sexism (and thus cause the "right" number of women to go into STEM); we can't "fix" Autism-linked chromosomes in people who have already been born.
      - gwern 16y ago
        Does reality care whether something you have a problem with is solvable?
    - 16y ago
kylec 16y ago
CS education works best for people who already know how to code before they begin. CS teaches the theory behind a practice in which they assume you already have some skill. Women are less likely to already know, because they don’t play video games as much. This does not make any sense. How does playing video games translate to coding skill?
- dieterrams 16y ago
  "I like video games" often translates to "I want to work in the video game industry" often translates to "I'll learn how to program." More generally, however, enthusiasm for video games makes kids keenly aware of the hardware that makes it possible. (Even at the age of ten, kids will get into console wars citing which has the faster processor, etc.) Having that technical background from an early age, however rudimentary, makes gamers more likely to feel comfortable with programming.
  - tkahn6 16y ago
    I don't know about that. Since we're going on anecdotal evidence, out of my 25 or so friends who play videogames, I'm the only one who programs. An analog to your statement would be: "I like movies" often translates into "I want to work in the film industry"
    - dieterrams 16y ago
      Note that I'm using "often" to mean "happens with statistically significant frequency," as opposed to something like "happens most of the time." > An analog to your statement would be: "I like movies" often translates into "I want to work in the film industry" But that's actually true, with the most desired movie-inspired career being actor/actress. The difference is that people give up this idea a lot more easily, because they realize that the odds of being a movie star are incredibly low. Analogous to liking rock music and wanting to be a rock star.
      - andrew1 16y ago
Keile 16y ago
I suspect women aren't attracted to computer science careers as often as men because they generally like more artistic and creative ventures. In other words, most women prefer careers and interests that allow them to be hand-on empathetic with the objects and people around them. In general, computer science is hardly portrayed as such a career. It may involve aspects of these things, but women generally aren't aware of it. The role models they see are all in the same sort of areas, and the majority of their female peers are all into the same sort of things. It creates something of an echo chamber that simply multiplies a compounding effect with dominant culture that discourages women from even entering a computer lab filled with sweaty nerds, much less think about joining them.
- mattdw 16y ago
  "…dominant culture that discourages women from even entering a computer lab filled with sweaty nerds, much less think about joining them." You have a good point here, but it's not just that they're sweaty, it's that all too often they're actively hostile to women – whether it's sexist jokes, an obsession with rape in DND games (all too frequent) or just the way they seem shocked that a woman could actually be good at coding. Makes things a bit unpleasant, yeah?
  - andymorris 16y ago
    For pretty much all of my coding life, I distanced myself from the other people doing CS. I stayed and worked hard at it because I enjoy it, and definitely out of no love for the "dominant culture". Yes, we're all a socially inept bunch of geeks, whatever. Socially inept girls should fit right in, and the rest of the girls can do what I did - ignore it, and just focus on learning.
  - Tichy 16y ago
    I am male and I would consider the people you describe to be unpleasant, too. Either I didn't encounter that many of them, or I did a better job ignoring them than the average woman. It's not as if you have to put up with that kind of behavior (when was the last time you were FORCED to join a D&D game??).
dman 16y ago
Ive seen many articles talking about code cowboys, or the lone rockstar programmer. It might just be the places ive worked at but I have yet to see anyone who fits this description. An anti social arrogant person who makes a lot of mistakes would simply find it hard to stay hired in todays comp sci world.
jquery 16y ago
For the opposite reason that nursing is a taco fest.
shib71 16y ago
The argument that I usually have, and constantly resist, is that a) generally women just aren't as interested in CS as men, and b) that's ok, so c) why give out scholarships to make CS artificially attractive, and d) if the industry isn't suffering for the lack (arguable) what's the big deal? But I think that the people in CS are being degraded. The women have to deal with a constant stream of rubbish, and men are being conditioned to provide it. It appears that some people are not being given full credit for their skills and work, and in an industry powered by kudos as much as money that should offend everyone.
petercooper 16y ago
A "sausage fest"? Classy rhetoric! Is nursing a "tits fest" or elementary education a "vagina fest"? It'll be great when intelligent people can stop identifying themselves or their sense of humor by their genitalia, race, or any other physical characteristic that has little to do with how good they can be as people. I agree that women might not want to hear "dick jokes" or "be groped" but most people don't regardless of gender. It's not a male/female dichotomy we're dealing with - it's a respect/idiocy dichotomy.
- nostrademons 16y ago
  The antonym for "sausage fest" is usually "clam bake" or "taco party".
  - zasz 16y ago
    Or "melon patch."
- derefr 16y ago
  You're completely right, of course—but I have to point out that elementary education is a "vagina fest", and not even a self-selected one. There is definite discrimination preventing men from entering the field—mostly by parents who don't want men around their kids.
  - Tichy 16y ago
    I seriously doubt that is the reason - on the contrary, I constantly hear that people would like more male teachers. However, I don't think the salary is sufficient to feed a family. Not sure if that is the main reason, but it might be a factor in men's decisions.
    - philwelch 16y ago
      There's a massive witchhunt against pedophiles that keeps a lot of men out of most occupations dealing with children.
awongh 16y ago
ugh. I really can't help but cringe whenever anyone tries to throw their hat into the ring and take on this problem, even if they have an inside take. CS education also focuses a lot of effort on puzzles and very abstract concepts when practical applications where you can see the why and how might work better for women (and a hell of a lot of men). I like yummy algorithms, but we could make CS education more accessible by putting them in context. I kind of wish this had happened when I was doing CS. What does that say about me? (I'm a guy) I think these kind of over-generalizations about an entire gender do nothing but contribute to the PC echo chamber. I don't know what contributes to the gender disparity, but I can say that I have plenty of male friends who also can't really contemplate being a programmer, and for many of the same reasons that are cited that women may not be attracted to the profession... I think it can be an intimidating profession no matter what your gender- anything like coding that has such an insular culture is the same.... Maybe it's just a chicken and egg problem.
- Keile 16y ago
  Seems like you put a lot of effort into this reply.
  - awongh 16y ago
    I did, because in I feel like gender stereotyping in general is overstated. Are there differences between men and women? Of course there are, but blanket statements, like the one you made below I suspect women aren't attracted to computer science careers as often as men because they generally like more artistic and creative ventures ...I feel like it's statements like this that don't help things. Women are more artistic and creative? I'd like to think that gender is a more nuanced (and maybe fluid?) thing, that has more subtle qualities to it than reductive statements like that suggest it does.
    - marquis 16y ago
      i'm glad to read your comments, as i feel the same way. i get remarks based on my gender from both men and women. the fact of the matter is, i am female but i am also the type of person who likes to spend a lot of time alone thinking and controlling my immediate environment. thus computing appeals to me. i also was introduced to computing at the right age, before adolescence when being sociable wasn't so much of an urge so even though i didn't code much through my teenage years i was able to pick it up later very easily and with confidence. i think it's really this simple: a blend of personality type, circumstance and privilege.
gamble 16y ago
> We are veterinary technicians not veterinarians, dental assistants not dentists, medical assistants not doctors. Women are now a slight majority of medical students and ~95% of nurses. Women make up >75% of the students in veterinary school, and around ~50% of students in dental school.
- ptomato 16y ago
  None of which in any way contradicts what she said.
  - stretchwithme 16y ago
    except for the whole women are "not doctors" thing.
    - Confusion 16y ago
      That depends on whether they go on to become doctors, veterinarians and dentists instead of assistants to those. The fact that someone has a certain education does not preclude them from ending up in a more assistive job related to the education. In fact, if women are still underrepresented among new doctors, veterinarians and dentists, that would be a likely explanation.
      - stretchwithme 16y ago
        Too bad there's no way we can find out. If we had some kind of a computer where we search for the answer, perhaps the confusion would subside.
      - Tichy 16y ago
        I don't think somebody studying medicine ends up being a nurse. Not the women mentioned here either. I suspect Stubbornella simply didn't check many numbers. For example, maybe because a lot of women are working in people facing jobs (secretaries, receptionists), it distorts impressions. Meanwhile, the men are shoveling shit in the backyard. At the same time lots of men and women have "better" jobs, but they are not as visible. So the impression is "women tend to become receptionists".
alanh 16y ago
> On the other hand, he assumes those women didn’t deserve to be sent to JSConf. Why should he assume that? Utter crap. That’s clearly not what the critics are concerned about. The women may indeed deserve to go — but no more than men who are not being offered the same grants. This is what is objectionable. This, and the implication that women need pushed into the field or artificially assisted, strike some as sexist. While she does make some good points towards the end, this whole piece is strewn with similar assumptions of male sexism, and is devoid of any realization that some perceived affirmative action as reverse discrimination.
- natrius 16y ago
  If women have the same potential both to succeed at computer science and to enjoy the work as men do, the underrepresentation of women in the field is a sign of problems that, if fixed, would result in more people leading more fulfilling lives. I think that is worth spending money on, and Google seems to agree. Moreover, if one's goal is to benefit the field of computer science rather than just help individuals choose careers they are better suited for, targeting highly capable women when applying such fixes would have the most return on investment. If these same grants were given out without regard to gender, they would result in less capability added to the field per dollar.
  - cabalamat 16y ago
    > If women have the same potential both to succeed at computer science and to enjoy the work as men do, the underrepresentation of women in the field is a sign of problems that, if fixed, would result in more people leading more fulfilling lives. I think that is worth spending money on, and Google seems to agree. If some _individuals_ have a potential to succeed at computer science and are currently not doing so, then I agree, helping them to do so would lead to people living more fulfilled lives. But such individuals should be helped equally regardless of such factors as gender, race, nationality, sexuality, etc. If it happens to be the case that most such individuals are women, then any well-chosen but fair (i.e. genderblind) criteria will end up helping mostly women anyway.
    - 16y ago
stretchwithme 16y ago
When we truly treat people as individuals, we'll accept whatever the situation exactly as it is. The diversity we find in humanity is exactly what has been required for us to get as far as we have. Its an absolute necessity, yet many are troubled when we see different types of people pursue different things. And just as many are troubled when other individuals pursue things they're "not supposed to". I think we all need to learn to go with the flow.
philwelch 16y ago
On someone's complaint about Google setting up a special grant program for women, OP writes: This stinks of jealousy. Why not be happy for the female students? Why rain on someone else’s parade? Something good happening to someone else seems to disgust fringley. Frankly, it comes off as childish. That's a terrible argument. Can't you say that about any form of discrimination? "So what if all the nice houses and neighborhoods and schools and drinking fountains and restrooms and universities are all restricted to white people? Can't you be happy for them? Why rain on someone else's parade?" There are good arguments to be made for reverse discrimination, but "can't you be happy for someone else?" isn't one of them. Other issues: I believe CS and Web Development currently select for certain masculine qualities that are largely unrelated to someone’s prowess as a coder. I believe it is these tangential code-cowboy qualities women are unable or unwilling to emulate, and not their skill or capacity for abstraction, problem solving, creative thinking, or communication — All of which actually make them better developers. Then she lists a lot of code-cowboy vs. good-developer differences, involving things like "working in teams" and "understanding human elements" and "respecting people" (which are implicitly feminine traits, according to the OP, unlike the focused solitude that "code-cowboys" employ.) This is triply problematic--she dismisses out of hand the idea that men are better than women at abstract reasoning and such, but implicitly argues that the qualities of "good developers" are feminine and the qualities of "code cowboys" are both bad for development and masculine. After all this, she complains that her talents were viewed as better suited to management, when all that supposedly-feminine stuff like teamwork and respecting people are important parts of management. Incidentally, I think the reason for the gender gap is something she pointed out in all of this--women are less likely than men to engage in deeply focused solitary activities. Unlike her, I don't see the deep focus and solitude of programming as a bad thing at all--even if it does keep out women. EDIT HISTORY: Added "There are good arguments to be made for reverse discrimination..." sentence.
- Confusion 16y ago
  Let me first say that you are right that her comparison of 'cowboy' vs. 'good developer' is completely ridiculous. Talk about her prejudices showing in conjuring up that straw man. I've never worked with any developer that fitted in the cowboy category, while most did their best to fit in the 'good developer' category. However: Can't you say that about any form of discrimination? She could, but that's not what she is saying. She's saying it about this form of reverse discrimination. You implicitly assume 'forms of discrimination' are interchangeable and you consequently draw a completely skewed analogy. 'Female students in CS' are the party being discriminated against, while 'white people' are not suffering from discrimination (when compared to 'black people'; we're comparing in general; I'm not saying individual 'white people' don't ever experience discrimination: I'm saying it happens much when compared to the amount of discrimination black people suffer). That's why your argument is wrong: we're trying to offset discrimination against women here and we're not trying to defend the continued discrimination against some other party (note: you have to look at the situation before this particular instance of reverse discrimination is instituted: this instance cannot be defended by itself). Let me repeat that: female students in CS are being discriminated against. Almost nobody is doing that on purpose, but research in discrimination against women is crystal clear on this. There are many cognitive biases in our culture that prevent women from entering CS and becoming successful in it. We need positive discrimination to offset those cultural biases. Someone complaining about the unfairness of 'women-only' grants fails to understand the deeprootedness of prejudice. This, BTW, is a trap sophisticated men keep falling into. We tend to think there isn't much discrimination against women: after all, aren't we being completely fair against our female colleagues? The answer is simply: no, we probably are not, even if we do our best. The aggregate result of even very small amounts of prejudice are still noticable.
_g15c 16y ago
"CS education also focuses a lot of effort on puzzles and very abstract concepts when practical applications where you can see the why and how might work better for women (and a hell of a lot of men). I like yummy algorithms, but we could make CS education more accessible by putting them in context." Why must we make a field more accessible? It would also be more accessible if we just threw BS degrees off the back of a parade float. But, sorry, programming is at its core thinking about the abstract, learning to realize that, although you are writing in python/json/xml/rpc/wtf you are really just doing discrete mathematics. CS programs should not teach in the specifics, because frankly, the specifics don't matter. This was the same argument that the women in physics tried to make when I was an undergraduate. Appalled at the poor retention rate of women in first year physics programs, the solution was to make first year physics more 'accessible' (i guess this means easier). I'm sorry, but this is not the right way of thinking about the problem. Raise the students up, do not bend the program to raise numbers. Diversity is great, but context free grammers and recursive descent parsers are greater.
- _delirium 16y ago
  It also doesn't seem to account for the reduction in gender diversity over the past 20 years or so. Around 1990, women were around 35% of CS majors, and today, they're around 17%. What accounts for that drop? I don't think it can be "puzzles and very abstract concepts". If anything, the core theory/systems/PLs areas have declined as a proportion of the overall CS curriculum over that time period, and more applications-focused areas have increased in prominence. Many CS departments now have HCI faculty and classes, for example, which virtually none did in 1990, and there's lots more robotics and other explicitly applications-oriented areas in the curriculum as well. Not that I know why there's been a decline in women in CS over the past 20 years, either. But I think any explanation of why there aren't many women in CS now has to account for why there were more women in CS in 1990--- despite CS not being that much different at the time, and probably actually more "hardcore" systems/theory oriented.
  - Lewisham 16y ago
    I was under the impression (and by impression I mean I have no idea where I read this and thus cannot back up anything I say) that the problem was at the secondary schooling level; girls started out with a healthy interest in science and engineering when they begin at 11 or 12, but that interest level rapidly decreases as they move through schooling. The question is what is happening in the way we're teaching girls that they get so turned off by it? Obviously its not innate, because as you note, there used be a lot more women graduating with CS. I guess there could also be a societal argument as well, but I wouldn't know enough about the cultural norms of 1990 to comment.
Uchikoma 16y ago
Computer science is no science at all.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
Lewisham 16y ago
Obviously anyone making any comment about this article is wandering into a minefield of appearing sexist. While I agree with the sentiment (attracting girls into CS is OK, putting some money at the end of a stick is OK, and CS will benefit from them being there), one of the points did bother me. The first time I spoke at a conference, John Allsopp contacted me to ask if I would do it. I never would have submitted a proposal. You might say that I should have, but I would counter that I shouldn’t need to act like a dude to get respect. To which I shall counter, but you should have. This is an attitude of entitlement. "I am not the way you work, but I am a girl, thus everything is much harder for me, so I am entitled to have people bend over backwards telling me how wonderful I am and flattering me by asking me to speak at a conference." She makes the assumption that all men are speaking at conferences too; but they're not. Speaking at a conference is an honor. We've seen lots of stuff on HN about how people make their own luck. If people are hungry, they will make things happen. She wasn't hungry. She didn't want to speak. That's not a girl thing, that's just her. There are plenty of men in that boat too. These articles, as alanh described, are almost always strewn with male sexism too. I'm sad to see that this one is the same way. The wider question is not one of male/female, but of equality in general. Locker-room antics (of which I am guilty), work/life balance, teaching of the sciences and engineering in schools... these are all things that need to be reviewed about equality, not an us vs them, male vs female, attitude.
- mattdw 16y ago
  "To which I shall counter, but you should have. This is an attitude of entitlement." Clay Shirky has written about this at length [1]; the basic point being that women are socialized their whole lives to not be entitled or aggressive but to stay quiet and in the background, while men are constantly socialized to take what they want, step forward, go for it, "be a man" etc. Obviously there is much variation, and yes, geeks tend toward the not-so-aggro end of the table, but I think it's still an important point. I'd also suggest that, sure, there are lots of men not speaking at conferences, but I suspect proportionally there are even more women for whom that is true. [1] http://www.shirky.com/weblog/2010/01/a-rant-about-women/ http://www.shirky.com/weblog/2010/01/a-rant-about-women/ (edit: added link)
  - 16y ago
Tichy 16y ago
I must admit some parts of that annoy me. You can't argue with the sexist jokes and assumptions of being a secretary. But not wanting to be a Cowboy Coder? What does it mean, women coders always comment their source code? I don't think I have actually ever met a Cowboy Coder (I am 38 now, 10 years professional software developer, coding since I am 12), so I seriously doubt their mysthical existence is a significant deterrent for women in CS. Also things like "computer games are for men" - well if you really want it, create games for women. Nobody is preventing people (men or women) from creating games for women, or in general, from creating the environment for learning and working they desire. If it is true that it is harder for women to get CS jobs, it would be a serious concern. I'd like to see more hard data about it, though. The people I know all would love to hire more women. At the company we currently work for, we also have one woman coder (this is 100000% more women coders than I usually see at companies). But thanks to Scrum, we have several female designers in the teams, so at least the overall atmosphere is not all masculine. That's one of the few things I consider good about Scrum. By overall atmosphere I just mean a lone woman does not have to feel weird. I don't in general encounter penis jokes or whatever in masculine environments either (also no Star Trek posters - most offices simply have blue carpet, some unhappy plants, desks, computers).
wisty 16y ago
Even if women (statistically) suck at programming (a common claim here), I'm pretty sure that even the good ones are turned off programming because of the lack of female co-workers, discrimination, and other factors. I'd guess that the average women in technology is underrated (only the real enthusiasts get through), and talking them down is going to lead to further discrimination. Would I suggest that CS departments aim for 50% female students? Not this decade, and maybe not ever. But should women be given more credit, more opportunities, and more encouragement to start their own projects (rather than just contributing)? Hell yeah. http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_women_in_FLOSS http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_women_in_FLOSS
- Tichy 16y ago
  "should women be given more credit, more opportunities, and more encouragement to start their own projects (rather than just contributing)?" What exactly does that even mean, though? And wouldn't it also be rather patronizing? Btw, I don't think anybody ever encouraged me to start my own projects. Society in generally encourages you to become an office drone, no matter if you are male or female..
- gaius 16y ago
  Nobody should be "given" anything that someone else had to "earn". Last I checked Github didn't have quotas in place...
heatdeath 16y ago
Another article demanding that coders have no self-respect, but this time, it's assumed that self-respect is a masculine trait.
astartup1 16y ago
There is discrimination not against women but certain traits that are abundant in females. And some of those traits are not suitable for computing profession. Like majority of guys will not be suitable for nursing. It is not about competition, guys can do better nursing if need be and women can do better programming when they do. It is this simple, if women are REALLY capable and NATURAL candidate for Computing, why do we need to create artificial channels for them? Ohh... I get it. This is like saying I have world class athlete but he needs a separate competition to prove it. But still I think if there is (and there is some) discrimination against women, then generalizing men as selfish and evil, won't do any good.
- varjag 16y ago
  Who the hell is natural candidate for Computing anyway?
othermaciej 16y ago
It's interesting to compare to the proportion of women in or entering other "traditionally male" fields that are often seen as having a "boys club" atmosphere: - ~21% of practicing software engineers and ~21% of CS degree recipients are women. http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/298007/Making_IT_Work http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/298007/Making_I... - ~25% of practicing lawyers and 44% of law students are women. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-4197736.html http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-4197736.html - 30% of doctors and 42% of med students are women. http://www.uslaw.com/library/article/ABAWomenJustice.html http://www.uslaw.com/library/article/ABAWomenJustice.html It seems that medicine and law are significantly more effective at recruiting female students, and somewhat less so but still significantly more effective at attracting women to the workforce. Is there anything CS has to learn from these professions that are often seen as "macho", individualistic, and prone to long work hours?
- sjf 16y ago
  Better salaries?
ddewey 16y ago
Pro: I understand the reasoning behind affirmative action better after reading this quote: "People mistakenly assume that affirmative action is about granting minorities undeserved privileges. In it’s purist form, affirmative action is about allowing minorities natural talents to flourish by removing artificial, unfair barriers and decoupling the true skills required to succeed in a profession from the cultural baggage that builds naturally within an insular community." Con: The author seems to try to be fair, but quickly falls into the trap of characterizing men in the field as "socially-challenged-uber-nerd[s]". She says that "a lot of men would rather not live like code-cowboys", but goes on to recite a litany of bad traits that are "masculine qualities" and contrasts them with the traits of a "good developer". That's a good way to alienate male readers who would otherwise be sympathetic. Perhaps men do advocate for themselves more actively in the workplace, and that should be corrected for by affirmative action; saying that men "pester the boss until she finally relents to send them to a conference" doesn't accomplish anything. Con: spelling.
tom_ilsinszki 16y ago
This might be a risky comment for me, but I'll bite the bullet. Why I'd like to see more female developers? * I wanted to have more women (girls) around at university. Yes, one reason is sexual attraction (I hope it's not a problem, that I mention this, but I am a human being after all), but I also found that girls are an essential part of how human groups are formed. You might become really good friends with another guy at uni, just because you like hanging around the same girl at the beginning; on the other hand, you might not chat up and start hanging out with that other guy initially. * It would be far healthier for (young) people to socialize in a mixed environment. * A lot of women that I know are more social and caring than me in day to day communication. I'd also love to have and learn more of that. * Women tend to think differently. They have a different approach to problems, which is what teams are all about; having people with many different approaches, so that when a there is a problem, someone can think of the easiest possible solution. What I'm not sure I like about this post, is that it seems defensive. Tries to prove that "there are female developers who are just as good as men" too hard, while it forgets to focus on what women are better at, and also what the tech community would win if we all _actively_ knew that the community needs more women. I'd love to work in a mixed community of men and women.
- hbd 16y ago
  I think a lot of men actually stay away from technology both for the same "cultural" reasons as women and because of the lack of women. I know you generally start college earlier in the US, but when you get older you start thinking about what friends you'll spend your life with etc. When you're 23-25 the prospect of spending 5+ year in a quite homogeneous environment can be unwanted. This might be a complete misconception, but I've gotten the impression that American twenty-somethings are quite childish. And with people attributing Israels startup success partly to youths "growing up" during military service (which I don't recommend), mixing things up seems like a good idea. This is not aimed towards your comment, but I've notices that a lot of the time when non-technology and especially social science topics comes up here at HN. Everyone seem to disregard research and suddenly becomes experts based on what they feel. It's quite obvious that most people here aren't going to be experts in sociology or women's studies.
patrickgzill 16y ago
Who cares? Whether meaning to or not, these posts always degenerate to a laundry list of why men are slobs | jerks | adolescents who are living in Mom's basement | a disgusting unwashed bachelor pad | a van down by the river. Guess what - the reason that there are so few women in CS / programming, is because most women have decided to do something else with their lives (for whatever reason). That kind of thing tends to happen in a free society.
nzmsv 16y ago
If you take a look at @fringley's Twitter page, there's a comment from Diana Clarke, employee of FreshBooks. It says, I wonder if Dr. Browne, Dr. Hutt, Dr. Ruiz still want to give you a reference. Don't worry, I'll ask for you (@fringley). Now that is low. Women who are able to compete on merit, not backstabbing or special treatment, should be disgusted as well. Also, more proof that this is a forbidden topic. I can discuss wars, religion, and economic policy until blue in the face. But say anything about gender policies and face the consequences.
parfe 16y ago
Why is logging a sausage fest? Why is construction a sausage fest? Why is fishing a sausage fest? Why is trucking a sausage fest? Why is computer science treated as though gender balance is important when there are plenty of fields where women are nearly non-existent.
- missizii 16y ago
  All the other professions are high-risk and require significant physical strength. Men are generally more comfortable with high-risk, high-reward jobs, and have a physical strength advantage over women. Computer Science is not high-risk and does not require significant physical strength.
  - parfe 16y ago
    So why choose computer science as an area to push for more women to participate in? It seems like the opposite of equality. "Here are a bunch of dangerous, yet lucrative career tracks, but I think more women should be programmers because it's safer than climbing a ladder."
    - missizii 16y ago
      Women are more risk averse than men. It's a well-known evolutionary strategy for men to choose high-risk/high-reward pursuits. Also, you completely ignored my point about these careers being suited to physically extremely strong people, which are disproportionately men (due to biological differences). Women should be programmers because they are as mentally capable as men, and they can handle the minimal physical requirements. If a woman is just as strong as a male lumberjack/fisherman/etc, and perfectly fine with the risk, then she should be able to do that job as well. (More than 500,000 people are treated in the US for ladder-related injuries.)
      - parfe 16y ago
        It's absurd to be fulling willing to believe, on average, that physically a woman is weaker than a man, but for some reason her brain ( a physical structure! ) is identical in all areas of ability.
njharman 16y ago
The stereotyping of and bigotry against males in that diatribe was rather offensive.
simonjoe 16y ago
She's just mad because women suck at computers.
magma 16y ago
Most of the arguments made seem to suggest there is discrimination in CS education, and subsequently in the workspace. Even if we assume this to be true, How does this explain the lack of women in open source projects? Further, the author seems to reserve a special place for the Rockstar developer. Personally having been rescued a few times by such Rockstar coworker's all nighters, I have only respect and awe for such Rockstars.
grannyg00se 16y ago
I wonder why it is that people are so hesitant to simply accept the fact that men and women are fundamentally different. Is it so offensive to say that most women choose not to enter CS programs because females have different interests than males? I think we all see this in our daily lives. I haven't conducted any scientific studies, but few women I know are interested in the internal functioning of things as compared to men. If a female did show interest in learning how computers work, and somebody told her that she's not going to be as good as a male, then there would be something to complain about.
elblanco 16y ago
If there was ever a field where the current, male dominated, population wanted women in it, it's CS. I've never met a male CS person that wasn't genuinely happy to have a woman in the room doing CS as well. I think the issues of men in CS relate more to it being a uniquely problem solving discipline, not prone to the kind of social interactions women want it to be. (I know I'm at risk of stereotyping here, but I think the concept is valid). I've met some really fine women Computer Scientists, and I never saw or heard from them that they'd ever been materially discriminated against for being female. Anecdotal I'm sure, here's another. My group of college friends all formed out of people in the CS program at my school. We were pretty evenly split along male/female lines. Now, many years later, of our group, none of the women have stayed in pure CS (or some branch like InfoSec), opting to go work in different fields, like requirements management, or managing personnel doing CS type work. When asked why they left? All of them say that the relentless focus on pure problem solving eventually just wore them down and that they craved more human interaction. Sitting in cubes all day hacking out code just wasn't what they wanted to do with their life. Now, this kind of experience may not be true everywhere, I'm sure there are places where there is rampant sexism. But if a woman wants to do CS, she's more than welcome to do it, and based on my experience, barriers to her presence in the field will not be because of sexism. Similarly, you see lots of thinking about "why so few women in CS?" but you don't see any for construction/garbage handling/music composition/long-haul truck driving/<insert list of traditionally male dominated fields>. I think if you really want to understand the CS question, you have to understand the others. For some of the fields, it's pretty easy to chalk it up to the physical side of the job. But why so few women in music composition? There are absurdly few women in any kind of music composition. I don't mean "song writing" as in lyrics -- there's tons of women crooners. I mean putting notes on a page, or spinning and beat matching discs, or whatever. The demands of the profession are really no different than CS, yet I think representation is very similar.
missizii 16y ago
I'm not a fan of the male-stereotyping in the article. At best, it's unproductive, at worst, it insults men and so they stop listening. A lot of the responses here on HN though demonstrate exactly why many women leave software engineering. Read these responses and ask if you like your mother, wife, girlfriend, or daughter working with people who have these attitudes. In an all-male group, the level of misogyny is camouflaged because there are no women to talk about. When there's a woman around, it's exposed, because she is both a target of any misogyny PLUS all the discussion about the drama created by it. Most women cope by becoming "one of the guys" and laughing along when someone makes a sexist remark. The stereotype of the un-made-up geeky female hacker exists because a lot of women notice the difference in how they're treated when they wear a skirt, heels, nice hair, and make-up, as opposed to jeans, sneakers, ponytail. It's a lot easier to dress sloppy and not be made a target. Another problem is that a significant amount of workplace happiness derives from having friends at work. It's a lot harder to make friends when you're the only woman and you occasionally wonder, "does he really view me as a friend? or is he flirting? that sounded like flirting." Or consider networking - the best way to advance your career. How do geek guys network? It's not usually golf. Networking with geeky guys usually involves late nights gaming, coding, drinking beer (in my experience). I'm not comfortable going to my single coworkers house to play video games and drink beer until midnight, or staying at work coding with a couple coworkers after everyone else has gone home and the secret mini-fridge in the server room has been opened. It could lead to a bad situation with lots of misunderstanding that could ruin a career. Best to just avoid it. If it wasn't a wide-spread problem, then why does every single woman in the industry feel like it's something she has had to deal with personally? I've been in the industry 5 years and I'm considering leaving because I feel my gender is holding me back. I'm smart and hard working and I can do really well in a field where being a woman isn't going to hurt my career.
geebee 16y ago
I'm arriving to the discussion too late to make a fairly minor point.. but I do think that this blog post misses the boat completely on her dismissal of the fastest growing occupations for women. "We are veterinary technicians not veterinarians, dental assistants not dentists, medical assistants not doctors. We like to believe we have evolved, but the data speaks to something else." Utterly untrue. Women are not doctors? How on earth can she make a statement like this? According to this site: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/charts1982to2007.pdf http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/charts1982to2007.pdf "Since 1982-83, the total number of women entering U.S. medical schools has increased every year (in fact, the annual increases reach back to 1969-1970). Women’s share of the matriculating class has likewise increased. Women went from less than a third (31.4%) of all matriculants in 1982-83 to a high of 49.6 percent in 2003-04. In 2007-08, women were 48.3 percent of all matriculants." This data is a little old, I wouldn't be surprised if women surpass 50% soon.
naner 16y ago
It is much more subtle, but just as ugly. These days, bright, thoughtful, enlightened people assume that the absence of women in certain fields results from women being unable to compete on merit. The assumption that, if someone creates a scholarship for women, it is because otherwise, women can’t hack it. I tend to think it is that women often don't have the type of personality that allows them to enjoy a highly technical field. I can't be the only one whose noticed that a lot of computer scientists have some mildly autistic qualities. I do okay in most social situations but I have gone weeks without talking to anyone (besides the cashier at the grocery store, etc.) and I have been the awkward guy in a number of situations. And I am much better socialized than a lot of my colleges at work and in college. The field appears to attract this type of personality, I don't know why. And women appear to have these problems less frequently and less seriously than men do. And this also jives with her "code cowboy" stereotype.
tynman 16y ago
The school I teach at has recently found that women are actually more valued than their male counterparts by employers at the time of graduation. They've been averaging 4% higher job placement and about $2k higher starting salary; 95% and 62k, respectively, for women. http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=11721767&hl=2 http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=11721767&hl=2
jchonphoenix 16y ago
The thing that bugs me most about articles about "women in CS" is that they seem to ALWAYS ignore the most important contributing factor to why there are fewer women in the field: interest. In my experience at my university, it isn't that women aren't smart enough or dedicated enough to do CS. Its just that they don't find it all that interesting to them. If I found CS boring, I doubt I'd stick around either, regardless of what the opportunities looked like.
STHayden 16y ago
no matter if you think this article is well written or not I'm kinda tired of people's answer to gender inequality. We are not in some golden age of equality. equality has changed for the past 500 years and will continue to change. If you know it's going to change how can you not try and learn why it's changing and how you can affect it?
sn 16y ago
Some, but not all, of women are capable and some, but not all, of men are capable. Perhaps the numbers of capable men exceed the numbers of women. Even so that doesn't mean women as a whole are incapable of excelling with CS. All professionals wants to be treated with respect and not be typecast, whether there is a population of 5 or 500,000 for their particular subgroup. Community members going on about how women are less capable etc. makes for at least a partially self fulfilling prophesy. If a community member is badmouthing my particular subgroup, I am gong to assume they are prejudiced against me. Only the women who really, really love technology will go into a field in which they expect to be significantly discriminated against.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
random_guy 16y ago
This is really sexist, and the very fact that she can get away with it (and even get lots of praise) should make us all reflect on how fucked up social conventions and politically correctness are. I've written about the topic here -> http://usingimho.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/men-and-women-on-rubygems/ http://usingimho.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/men-and-women-on-r... and i've been smiten to death in the comments because i dared to state the fact that only around 1% of the opensource projects on rubygems are made by women and that we all should reflect on that. Here's a passage of her article: I believe it is these tangential code-cowboy qualities women are unable or unwilling to emulate, and not their skill or capacity for abstraction, problem solving, creative thinking, or communication — All of which actually make them better developers Think about if a man dared to write the following: I believe it is this inability to go straight to the point that men are unable or unwilling to emulate, and not their ability to understand other's needs and to understand how social situations work — All of which actually make them better marketers

80 points by limedaring 16y ago

gwern 16y ago

As usual, I like Philip Greenspun's explanation better than all of the anecdotes and fuzzy generalizations in this blog post: http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/acm-women-in-computing http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/acm-women-in-computing http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science tl;dr: It's because the women who would do well in CS/STEM have much better paying, or easier, or more prestigious options available to them.

mattdw 16y ago
…or, you know, the directly hostile and sexist things women sometimes experience in the industry. As described in the original post. Not to say that Greenspun is wrong in his conclusions, but when women are saying "I find it unpleasant to be in the industry because…", it seems kinda patronising to turn around and suggest that they're wrong.
- btn 16y ago
  It's not saying that they're wrong, but that there are factors beside sexism and bigotry that contribute to the problem.
- Tichy 16y ago
  To experience the sexist things, you would first have to enter the industry, though. I somewhat doubt it is a good explanation. Also, is life in CS really so unbearable for Stubbornella and other women?
AndyKelley 16y ago
The problem I have with that logic is, why wouldn't men decide the same thing? The author's reasoning seems to be 1. young men strive to achieve high status among their peer group 2. men tend to lack perspective and are unable to step back and ask the question "is this peer group worth impressing?" but I ask, why? The article seems to be rejecting the idea that men are naturally better than women at programming (and some other ideas) and embracing the idea that women are naturally better than men at finding a suitable career. I suppose this is just as valid of a hypothesis, but I don't think it is good enough to simply dismiss the other one.
- Tichy 16y ago
  For one thing, achieving high status might not be so relevant for a woman. A womb is inherently valuable, whereas men have to prove by status that they can take care of a child. Or rather, in theory one high status male can make babies with a lot of low status women. It may not quite work that way anymore in todays society (? I am not high status enough to know), but it might still be genetically driving our behavior.
  - cabalamat 16y ago
    > It may not quite work that way anymore in todays society Whether or not this is true today is irrelevant; what matters is whether it was true in the environment of evolutionary adaptation.
- gwern 16y ago
  > men are naturally better than women at programming (and some other ideas) and embracing the idea that women are naturally better than men at finding a suitable career. If it's plausible enough that millions of young women can have their career and life choices distorted away from STEM by a little sexism (a distortion in the dozens or scores of percents), then why isn't it even more plausible that millions of young men can suffer from well-known traits linked with autism or Asperger's (which are known to be vastly more common in males) and make choices distorted towards STEM?
  - derefr 16y ago
    It's not that they're not equally plausible; it's that they're not equally solvable. We can "fix" sexism (and thus cause the "right" number of women to go into STEM); we can't "fix" Autism-linked chromosomes in people who have already been born.
    - gwern 16y ago
      Does reality care whether something you have a problem with is solvable?
  - 16y ago

kylec 16y ago

CS education works best for people who already know how to code before they begin. CS teaches the theory behind a practice in which they assume you already have some skill. Women are less likely to already know, because they don’t play video games as much. This does not make any sense. How does playing video games translate to coding skill?

dieterrams 16y ago
"I like video games" often translates to "I want to work in the video game industry" often translates to "I'll learn how to program." More generally, however, enthusiasm for video games makes kids keenly aware of the hardware that makes it possible. (Even at the age of ten, kids will get into console wars citing which has the faster processor, etc.) Having that technical background from an early age, however rudimentary, makes gamers more likely to feel comfortable with programming.
- tkahn6 16y ago
  I don't know about that. Since we're going on anecdotal evidence, out of my 25 or so friends who play videogames, I'm the only one who programs. An analog to your statement would be: "I like movies" often translates into "I want to work in the film industry"
  - dieterrams 16y ago
    Note that I'm using "often" to mean "happens with statistically significant frequency," as opposed to something like "happens most of the time." > An analog to your statement would be: "I like movies" often translates into "I want to work in the film industry" But that's actually true, with the most desired movie-inspired career being actor/actress. The difference is that people give up this idea a lot more easily, because they realize that the odds of being a movie star are incredibly low. Analogous to liking rock music and wanting to be a rock star.
    - andrew1 16y ago

Keile 16y ago

I suspect women aren't attracted to computer science careers as often as men because they generally like more artistic and creative ventures. In other words, most women prefer careers and interests that allow them to be hand-on empathetic with the objects and people around them. In general, computer science is hardly portrayed as such a career. It may involve aspects of these things, but women generally aren't aware of it. The role models they see are all in the same sort of areas, and the majority of their female peers are all into the same sort of things. It creates something of an echo chamber that simply multiplies a compounding effect with dominant culture that discourages women from even entering a computer lab filled with sweaty nerds, much less think about joining them.

mattdw 16y ago
"…dominant culture that discourages women from even entering a computer lab filled with sweaty nerds, much less think about joining them." You have a good point here, but it's not just that they're sweaty, it's that all too often they're actively hostile to women – whether it's sexist jokes, an obsession with rape in DND games (all too frequent) or just the way they seem shocked that a woman could actually be good at coding. Makes things a bit unpleasant, yeah?
- andymorris 16y ago
  For pretty much all of my coding life, I distanced myself from the other people doing CS. I stayed and worked hard at it because I enjoy it, and definitely out of no love for the "dominant culture". Yes, we're all a socially inept bunch of geeks, whatever. Socially inept girls should fit right in, and the rest of the girls can do what I did - ignore it, and just focus on learning.
- Tichy 16y ago
  I am male and I would consider the people you describe to be unpleasant, too. Either I didn't encounter that many of them, or I did a better job ignoring them than the average woman. It's not as if you have to put up with that kind of behavior (when was the last time you were FORCED to join a D&D game??).

dman 16y ago

Ive seen many articles talking about code cowboys, or the lone rockstar programmer. It might just be the places ive worked at but I have yet to see anyone who fits this description. An anti social arrogant person who makes a lot of mistakes would simply find it hard to stay hired in todays comp sci world.

jquery 16y ago

For the opposite reason that nursing is a taco fest.

shib71 16y ago

The argument that I usually have, and constantly resist, is that a) generally women just aren't as interested in CS as men, and b) that's ok, so c) why give out scholarships to make CS artificially attractive, and d) if the industry isn't suffering for the lack (arguable) what's the big deal? But I think that the people in CS are being degraded. The women have to deal with a constant stream of rubbish, and men are being conditioned to provide it. It appears that some people are not being given full credit for their skills and work, and in an industry powered by kudos as much as money that should offend everyone.

petercooper 16y ago

A "sausage fest"? Classy rhetoric! Is nursing a "tits fest" or elementary education a "vagina fest"? It'll be great when intelligent people can stop identifying themselves or their sense of humor by their genitalia, race, or any other physical characteristic that has little to do with how good they can be as people. I agree that women might not want to hear "dick jokes" or "be groped" but most people don't regardless of gender. It's not a male/female dichotomy we're dealing with - it's a respect/idiocy dichotomy.

nostrademons 16y ago
The antonym for "sausage fest" is usually "clam bake" or "taco party".
- zasz 16y ago
  Or "melon patch."
derefr 16y ago
You're completely right, of course—but I have to point out that elementary education is a "vagina fest", and not even a self-selected one. There is definite discrimination preventing men from entering the field—mostly by parents who don't want men around their kids.
- Tichy 16y ago
  I seriously doubt that is the reason - on the contrary, I constantly hear that people would like more male teachers. However, I don't think the salary is sufficient to feed a family. Not sure if that is the main reason, but it might be a factor in men's decisions.
  - philwelch 16y ago
    There's a massive witchhunt against pedophiles that keeps a lot of men out of most occupations dealing with children.

awongh 16y ago

ugh. I really can't help but cringe whenever anyone tries to throw their hat into the ring and take on this problem, even if they have an inside take. CS education also focuses a lot of effort on puzzles and very abstract concepts when practical applications where you can see the why and how might work better for women (and a hell of a lot of men). I like yummy algorithms, but we could make CS education more accessible by putting them in context. I kind of wish this had happened when I was doing CS. What does that say about me? (I'm a guy) I think these kind of over-generalizations about an entire gender do nothing but contribute to the PC echo chamber. I don't know what contributes to the gender disparity, but I can say that I have plenty of male friends who also can't really contemplate being a programmer, and for many of the same reasons that are cited that women may not be attracted to the profession... I think it can be an intimidating profession no matter what your gender- anything like coding that has such an insular culture is the same.... Maybe it's just a chicken and egg problem.

Keile 16y ago
Seems like you put a lot of effort into this reply.
- awongh 16y ago
  I did, because in I feel like gender stereotyping in general is overstated. Are there differences between men and women? Of course there are, but blanket statements, like the one you made below I suspect women aren't attracted to computer science careers as often as men because they generally like more artistic and creative ventures ...I feel like it's statements like this that don't help things. Women are more artistic and creative? I'd like to think that gender is a more nuanced (and maybe fluid?) thing, that has more subtle qualities to it than reductive statements like that suggest it does.
  - marquis 16y ago
    i'm glad to read your comments, as i feel the same way. i get remarks based on my gender from both men and women. the fact of the matter is, i am female but i am also the type of person who likes to spend a lot of time alone thinking and controlling my immediate environment. thus computing appeals to me. i also was introduced to computing at the right age, before adolescence when being sociable wasn't so much of an urge so even though i didn't code much through my teenage years i was able to pick it up later very easily and with confidence. i think it's really this simple: a blend of personality type, circumstance and privilege.

gamble 16y ago

> We are veterinary technicians not veterinarians, dental assistants not dentists, medical assistants not doctors. Women are now a slight majority of medical students and ~95% of nurses. Women make up >75% of the students in veterinary school, and around ~50% of students in dental school.

ptomato 16y ago
None of which in any way contradicts what she said.
- stretchwithme 16y ago
  except for the whole women are "not doctors" thing.
  - Confusion 16y ago
    That depends on whether they go on to become doctors, veterinarians and dentists instead of assistants to those. The fact that someone has a certain education does not preclude them from ending up in a more assistive job related to the education. In fact, if women are still underrepresented among new doctors, veterinarians and dentists, that would be a likely explanation.
    - stretchwithme 16y ago
      Too bad there's no way we can find out. If we had some kind of a computer where we search for the answer, perhaps the confusion would subside.
    - Tichy 16y ago
      I don't think somebody studying medicine ends up being a nurse. Not the women mentioned here either. I suspect Stubbornella simply didn't check many numbers. For example, maybe because a lot of women are working in people facing jobs (secretaries, receptionists), it distorts impressions. Meanwhile, the men are shoveling shit in the backyard. At the same time lots of men and women have "better" jobs, but they are not as visible. So the impression is "women tend to become receptionists".

alanh 16y ago

> On the other hand, he assumes those women didn’t deserve to be sent to JSConf. Why should he assume that? Utter crap. That’s clearly not what the critics are concerned about. The women may indeed deserve to go — but no more than men who are not being offered the same grants. This is what is objectionable. This, and the implication that women need pushed into the field or artificially assisted, strike some as sexist. While she does make some good points towards the end, this whole piece is strewn with similar assumptions of male sexism, and is devoid of any realization that some perceived affirmative action as reverse discrimination.

natrius 16y ago
If women have the same potential both to succeed at computer science and to enjoy the work as men do, the underrepresentation of women in the field is a sign of problems that, if fixed, would result in more people leading more fulfilling lives. I think that is worth spending money on, and Google seems to agree. Moreover, if one's goal is to benefit the field of computer science rather than just help individuals choose careers they are better suited for, targeting highly capable women when applying such fixes would have the most return on investment. If these same grants were given out without regard to gender, they would result in less capability added to the field per dollar.
- cabalamat 16y ago
  > If women have the same potential both to succeed at computer science and to enjoy the work as men do, the underrepresentation of women in the field is a sign of problems that, if fixed, would result in more people leading more fulfilling lives. I think that is worth spending money on, and Google seems to agree. If some _individuals_ have a potential to succeed at computer science and are currently not doing so, then I agree, helping them to do so would lead to people living more fulfilled lives. But such individuals should be helped equally regardless of such factors as gender, race, nationality, sexuality, etc. If it happens to be the case that most such individuals are women, then any well-chosen but fair (i.e. genderblind) criteria will end up helping mostly women anyway.
  - 16y ago

stretchwithme 16y ago

When we truly treat people as individuals, we'll accept whatever the situation exactly as it is. The diversity we find in humanity is exactly what has been required for us to get as far as we have. Its an absolute necessity, yet many are troubled when we see different types of people pursue different things. And just as many are troubled when other individuals pursue things they're "not supposed to". I think we all need to learn to go with the flow.

philwelch 16y ago

On someone's complaint about Google setting up a special grant program for women, OP writes: This stinks of jealousy. Why not be happy for the female students? Why rain on someone else’s parade? Something good happening to someone else seems to disgust fringley. Frankly, it comes off as childish. That's a terrible argument. Can't you say that about any form of discrimination? "So what if all the nice houses and neighborhoods and schools and drinking fountains and restrooms and universities are all restricted to white people? Can't you be happy for them? Why rain on someone else's parade?" There are good arguments to be made for reverse discrimination, but "can't you be happy for someone else?" isn't one of them. Other issues: I believe CS and Web Development currently select for certain masculine qualities that are largely unrelated to someone’s prowess as a coder. I believe it is these tangential code-cowboy qualities women are unable or unwilling to emulate, and not their skill or capacity for abstraction, problem solving, creative thinking, or communication — All of which actually make them better developers. Then she lists a lot of code-cowboy vs. good-developer differences, involving things like "working in teams" and "understanding human elements" and "respecting people" (which are implicitly feminine traits, according to the OP, unlike the focused solitude that "code-cowboys" employ.) This is triply problematic--she dismisses out of hand the idea that men are better than women at abstract reasoning and such, but implicitly argues that the qualities of "good developers" are feminine and the qualities of "code cowboys" are both bad for development and masculine. After all this, she complains that her talents were viewed as better suited to management, when all that supposedly-feminine stuff like teamwork and respecting people are important parts of management. Incidentally, I think the reason for the gender gap is something she pointed out in all of this--women are less likely than men to engage in deeply focused solitary activities. Unlike her, I don't see the deep focus and solitude of programming as a bad thing at all--even if it does keep out women. EDIT HISTORY: Added "There are good arguments to be made for reverse discrimination..." sentence.

Confusion 16y ago
Let me first say that you are right that her comparison of 'cowboy' vs. 'good developer' is completely ridiculous. Talk about her prejudices showing in conjuring up that straw man. I've never worked with any developer that fitted in the cowboy category, while most did their best to fit in the 'good developer' category. However: Can't you say that about any form of discrimination? She could, but that's not what she is saying. She's saying it about this form of reverse discrimination. You implicitly assume 'forms of discrimination' are interchangeable and you consequently draw a completely skewed analogy. 'Female students in CS' are the party being discriminated against, while 'white people' are not suffering from discrimination (when compared to 'black people'; we're comparing in general; I'm not saying individual 'white people' don't ever experience discrimination: I'm saying it happens much when compared to the amount of discrimination black people suffer). That's why your argument is wrong: we're trying to offset discrimination against women here and we're not trying to defend the continued discrimination against some other party (note: you have to look at the situation before this particular instance of reverse discrimination is instituted: this instance cannot be defended by itself). Let me repeat that: female students in CS are being discriminated against. Almost nobody is doing that on purpose, but research in discrimination against women is crystal clear on this. There are many cognitive biases in our culture that prevent women from entering CS and becoming successful in it. We need positive discrimination to offset those cultural biases. Someone complaining about the unfairness of 'women-only' grants fails to understand the deeprootedness of prejudice. This, BTW, is a trap sophisticated men keep falling into. We tend to think there isn't much discrimination against women: after all, aren't we being completely fair against our female colleagues? The answer is simply: no, we probably are not, even if we do our best. The aggregate result of even very small amounts of prejudice are still noticable.

_g15c 16y ago

"CS education also focuses a lot of effort on puzzles and very abstract concepts when practical applications where you can see the why and how might work better for women (and a hell of a lot of men). I like yummy algorithms, but we could make CS education more accessible by putting them in context." Why must we make a field more accessible? It would also be more accessible if we just threw BS degrees off the back of a parade float. But, sorry, programming is at its core thinking about the abstract, learning to realize that, although you are writing in python/json/xml/rpc/wtf you are really just doing discrete mathematics. CS programs should not teach in the specifics, because frankly, the specifics don't matter. This was the same argument that the women in physics tried to make when I was an undergraduate. Appalled at the poor retention rate of women in first year physics programs, the solution was to make first year physics more 'accessible' (i guess this means easier). I'm sorry, but this is not the right way of thinking about the problem. Raise the students up, do not bend the program to raise numbers. Diversity is great, but context free grammers and recursive descent parsers are greater.

_delirium 16y ago
It also doesn't seem to account for the reduction in gender diversity over the past 20 years or so. Around 1990, women were around 35% of CS majors, and today, they're around 17%. What accounts for that drop? I don't think it can be "puzzles and very abstract concepts". If anything, the core theory/systems/PLs areas have declined as a proportion of the overall CS curriculum over that time period, and more applications-focused areas have increased in prominence. Many CS departments now have HCI faculty and classes, for example, which virtually none did in 1990, and there's lots more robotics and other explicitly applications-oriented areas in the curriculum as well. Not that I know why there's been a decline in women in CS over the past 20 years, either. But I think any explanation of why there aren't many women in CS now has to account for why there were more women in CS in 1990--- despite CS not being that much different at the time, and probably actually more "hardcore" systems/theory oriented.
- Lewisham 16y ago
  I was under the impression (and by impression I mean I have no idea where I read this and thus cannot back up anything I say) that the problem was at the secondary schooling level; girls started out with a healthy interest in science and engineering when they begin at 11 or 12, but that interest level rapidly decreases as they move through schooling. The question is what is happening in the way we're teaching girls that they get so turned off by it? Obviously its not innate, because as you note, there used be a lot more women graduating with CS. I guess there could also be a societal argument as well, but I wouldn't know enough about the cultural norms of 1990 to comment.

Uchikoma 16y ago

Computer science is no science at all.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

Lewisham 16y ago

Obviously anyone making any comment about this article is wandering into a minefield of appearing sexist. While I agree with the sentiment (attracting girls into CS is OK, putting some money at the end of a stick is OK, and CS will benefit from them being there), one of the points did bother me. The first time I spoke at a conference, John Allsopp contacted me to ask if I would do it. I never would have submitted a proposal. You might say that I should have, but I would counter that I shouldn’t need to act like a dude to get respect. To which I shall counter, but you should have. This is an attitude of entitlement. "I am not the way you work, but I am a girl, thus everything is much harder for me, so I am entitled to have people bend over backwards telling me how wonderful I am and flattering me by asking me to speak at a conference." She makes the assumption that all men are speaking at conferences too; but they're not. Speaking at a conference is an honor. We've seen lots of stuff on HN about how people make their own luck. If people are hungry, they will make things happen. She wasn't hungry. She didn't want to speak. That's not a girl thing, that's just her. There are plenty of men in that boat too. These articles, as alanh described, are almost always strewn with male sexism too. I'm sad to see that this one is the same way. The wider question is not one of male/female, but of equality in general. Locker-room antics (of which I am guilty), work/life balance, teaching of the sciences and engineering in schools... these are all things that need to be reviewed about equality, not an us vs them, male vs female, attitude.

mattdw 16y ago
"To which I shall counter, but you should have. This is an attitude of entitlement." Clay Shirky has written about this at length [1]; the basic point being that women are socialized their whole lives to not be entitled or aggressive but to stay quiet and in the background, while men are constantly socialized to take what they want, step forward, go for it, "be a man" etc. Obviously there is much variation, and yes, geeks tend toward the not-so-aggro end of the table, but I think it's still an important point. I'd also suggest that, sure, there are lots of men not speaking at conferences, but I suspect proportionally there are even more women for whom that is true. [1] http://www.shirky.com/weblog/2010/01/a-rant-about-women/ http://www.shirky.com/weblog/2010/01/a-rant-about-women/ (edit: added link)
- 16y ago

Tichy 16y ago

I must admit some parts of that annoy me. You can't argue with the sexist jokes and assumptions of being a secretary. But not wanting to be a Cowboy Coder? What does it mean, women coders always comment their source code? I don't think I have actually ever met a Cowboy Coder (I am 38 now, 10 years professional software developer, coding since I am 12), so I seriously doubt their mysthical existence is a significant deterrent for women in CS. Also things like "computer games are for men" - well if you really want it, create games for women. Nobody is preventing people (men or women) from creating games for women, or in general, from creating the environment for learning and working they desire. If it is true that it is harder for women to get CS jobs, it would be a serious concern. I'd like to see more hard data about it, though. The people I know all would love to hire more women. At the company we currently work for, we also have one woman coder (this is 100000% more women coders than I usually see at companies). But thanks to Scrum, we have several female designers in the teams, so at least the overall atmosphere is not all masculine. That's one of the few things I consider good about Scrum. By overall atmosphere I just mean a lone woman does not have to feel weird. I don't in general encounter penis jokes or whatever in masculine environments either (also no Star Trek posters - most offices simply have blue carpet, some unhappy plants, desks, computers).

wisty 16y ago

Even if women (statistically) suck at programming (a common claim here), I'm pretty sure that even the good ones are turned off programming because of the lack of female co-workers, discrimination, and other factors. I'd guess that the average women in technology is underrated (only the real enthusiasts get through), and talking them down is going to lead to further discrimination. Would I suggest that CS departments aim for 50% female students? Not this decade, and maybe not ever. But should women be given more credit, more opportunities, and more encouragement to start their own projects (rather than just contributing)? Hell yeah. http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_women_in_FLOSS http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_women_in_FLOSS

Tichy 16y ago
"should women be given more credit, more opportunities, and more encouragement to start their own projects (rather than just contributing)?" What exactly does that even mean, though? And wouldn't it also be rather patronizing? Btw, I don't think anybody ever encouraged me to start my own projects. Society in generally encourages you to become an office drone, no matter if you are male or female..
gaius 16y ago
Nobody should be "given" anything that someone else had to "earn". Last I checked Github didn't have quotas in place...

heatdeath 16y ago

Another article demanding that coders have no self-respect, but this time, it's assumed that self-respect is a masculine trait.

astartup1 16y ago

There is discrimination not against women but certain traits that are abundant in females. And some of those traits are not suitable for computing profession. Like majority of guys will not be suitable for nursing. It is not about competition, guys can do better nursing if need be and women can do better programming when they do. It is this simple, if women are REALLY capable and NATURAL candidate for Computing, why do we need to create artificial channels for them? Ohh... I get it. This is like saying I have world class athlete but he needs a separate competition to prove it. But still I think if there is (and there is some) discrimination against women, then generalizing men as selfish and evil, won't do any good.

varjag 16y ago
Who the hell is natural candidate for Computing anyway?

othermaciej 16y ago

It's interesting to compare to the proportion of women in or entering other "traditionally male" fields that are often seen as having a "boys club" atmosphere: - ~21% of practicing software engineers and ~21% of CS degree recipients are women. http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/298007/Making_IT_Work http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/298007/Making_I... - ~25% of practicing lawyers and 44% of law students are women. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-4197736.html http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-4197736.html - 30% of doctors and 42% of med students are women. http://www.uslaw.com/library/article/ABAWomenJustice.html http://www.uslaw.com/library/article/ABAWomenJustice.html It seems that medicine and law are significantly more effective at recruiting female students, and somewhat less so but still significantly more effective at attracting women to the workforce. Is there anything CS has to learn from these professions that are often seen as "macho", individualistic, and prone to long work hours?

sjf 16y ago
Better salaries?

ddewey 16y ago

Pro: I understand the reasoning behind affirmative action better after reading this quote: "People mistakenly assume that affirmative action is about granting minorities undeserved privileges. In it’s purist form, affirmative action is about allowing minorities natural talents to flourish by removing artificial, unfair barriers and decoupling the true skills required to succeed in a profession from the cultural baggage that builds naturally within an insular community." Con: The author seems to try to be fair, but quickly falls into the trap of characterizing men in the field as "socially-challenged-uber-nerd[s]". She says that "a lot of men would rather not live like code-cowboys", but goes on to recite a litany of bad traits that are "masculine qualities" and contrasts them with the traits of a "good developer". That's a good way to alienate male readers who would otherwise be sympathetic. Perhaps men do advocate for themselves more actively in the workplace, and that should be corrected for by affirmative action; saying that men "pester the boss until she finally relents to send them to a conference" doesn't accomplish anything. Con: spelling.

tom_ilsinszki 16y ago

This might be a risky comment for me, but I'll bite the bullet. Why I'd like to see more female developers? * I wanted to have more women (girls) around at university. Yes, one reason is sexual attraction (I hope it's not a problem, that I mention this, but I am a human being after all), but I also found that girls are an essential part of how human groups are formed. You might become really good friends with another guy at uni, just because you like hanging around the same girl at the beginning; on the other hand, you might not chat up and start hanging out with that other guy initially. * It would be far healthier for (young) people to socialize in a mixed environment. * A lot of women that I know are more social and caring than me in day to day communication. I'd also love to have and learn more of that. * Women tend to think differently. They have a different approach to problems, which is what teams are all about; having people with many different approaches, so that when a there is a problem, someone can think of the easiest possible solution. What I'm not sure I like about this post, is that it seems defensive. Tries to prove that "there are female developers who are just as good as men" too hard, while it forgets to focus on what women are better at, and also what the tech community would win if we all _actively_ knew that the community needs more women. I'd love to work in a mixed community of men and women.

hbd 16y ago
I think a lot of men actually stay away from technology both for the same "cultural" reasons as women and because of the lack of women. I know you generally start college earlier in the US, but when you get older you start thinking about what friends you'll spend your life with etc. When you're 23-25 the prospect of spending 5+ year in a quite homogeneous environment can be unwanted. This might be a complete misconception, but I've gotten the impression that American twenty-somethings are quite childish. And with people attributing Israels startup success partly to youths "growing up" during military service (which I don't recommend), mixing things up seems like a good idea. This is not aimed towards your comment, but I've notices that a lot of the time when non-technology and especially social science topics comes up here at HN. Everyone seem to disregard research and suddenly becomes experts based on what they feel. It's quite obvious that most people here aren't going to be experts in sociology or women's studies.

patrickgzill 16y ago

Who cares? Whether meaning to or not, these posts always degenerate to a laundry list of why men are slobs | jerks | adolescents who are living in Mom's basement | a disgusting unwashed bachelor pad | a van down by the river. Guess what - the reason that there are so few women in CS / programming, is because most women have decided to do something else with their lives (for whatever reason). That kind of thing tends to happen in a free society.

nzmsv 16y ago

If you take a look at @fringley's Twitter page, there's a comment from Diana Clarke, employee of FreshBooks. It says, I wonder if Dr. Browne, Dr. Hutt, Dr. Ruiz still want to give you a reference. Don't worry, I'll ask for you (@fringley). Now that is low. Women who are able to compete on merit, not backstabbing or special treatment, should be disgusted as well. Also, more proof that this is a forbidden topic. I can discuss wars, religion, and economic policy until blue in the face. But say anything about gender policies and face the consequences.

parfe 16y ago

Why is logging a sausage fest? Why is construction a sausage fest? Why is fishing a sausage fest? Why is trucking a sausage fest? Why is computer science treated as though gender balance is important when there are plenty of fields where women are nearly non-existent.

missizii 16y ago
All the other professions are high-risk and require significant physical strength. Men are generally more comfortable with high-risk, high-reward jobs, and have a physical strength advantage over women. Computer Science is not high-risk and does not require significant physical strength.
- parfe 16y ago
  So why choose computer science as an area to push for more women to participate in? It seems like the opposite of equality. "Here are a bunch of dangerous, yet lucrative career tracks, but I think more women should be programmers because it's safer than climbing a ladder."
  - missizii 16y ago
    Women are more risk averse than men. It's a well-known evolutionary strategy for men to choose high-risk/high-reward pursuits. Also, you completely ignored my point about these careers being suited to physically extremely strong people, which are disproportionately men (due to biological differences). Women should be programmers because they are as mentally capable as men, and they can handle the minimal physical requirements. If a woman is just as strong as a male lumberjack/fisherman/etc, and perfectly fine with the risk, then she should be able to do that job as well. (More than 500,000 people are treated in the US for ladder-related injuries.)
    - parfe 16y ago
      It's absurd to be fulling willing to believe, on average, that physically a woman is weaker than a man, but for some reason her brain ( a physical structure! ) is identical in all areas of ability.

njharman 16y ago

The stereotyping of and bigotry against males in that diatribe was rather offensive.

simonjoe 16y ago

She's just mad because women suck at computers.

magma 16y ago

Most of the arguments made seem to suggest there is discrimination in CS education, and subsequently in the workspace. Even if we assume this to be true, How does this explain the lack of women in open source projects? Further, the author seems to reserve a special place for the Rockstar developer. Personally having been rescued a few times by such Rockstar coworker's all nighters, I have only respect and awe for such Rockstars.

grannyg00se 16y ago

I wonder why it is that people are so hesitant to simply accept the fact that men and women are fundamentally different. Is it so offensive to say that most women choose not to enter CS programs because females have different interests than males? I think we all see this in our daily lives. I haven't conducted any scientific studies, but few women I know are interested in the internal functioning of things as compared to men. If a female did show interest in learning how computers work, and somebody told her that she's not going to be as good as a male, then there would be something to complain about.

elblanco 16y ago

If there was ever a field where the current, male dominated, population wanted women in it, it's CS. I've never met a male CS person that wasn't genuinely happy to have a woman in the room doing CS as well. I think the issues of men in CS relate more to it being a uniquely problem solving discipline, not prone to the kind of social interactions women want it to be. (I know I'm at risk of stereotyping here, but I think the concept is valid). I've met some really fine women Computer Scientists, and I never saw or heard from them that they'd ever been materially discriminated against for being female. Anecdotal I'm sure, here's another. My group of college friends all formed out of people in the CS program at my school. We were pretty evenly split along male/female lines. Now, many years later, of our group, none of the women have stayed in pure CS (or some branch like InfoSec), opting to go work in different fields, like requirements management, or managing personnel doing CS type work. When asked why they left? All of them say that the relentless focus on pure problem solving eventually just wore them down and that they craved more human interaction. Sitting in cubes all day hacking out code just wasn't what they wanted to do with their life. Now, this kind of experience may not be true everywhere, I'm sure there are places where there is rampant sexism. But if a woman wants to do CS, she's more than welcome to do it, and based on my experience, barriers to her presence in the field will not be because of sexism. Similarly, you see lots of thinking about "why so few women in CS?" but you don't see any for construction/garbage handling/music composition/long-haul truck driving/<insert list of traditionally male dominated fields>. I think if you really want to understand the CS question, you have to understand the others. For some of the fields, it's pretty easy to chalk it up to the physical side of the job. But why so few women in music composition? There are absurdly few women in any kind of music composition. I don't mean "song writing" as in lyrics -- there's tons of women crooners. I mean putting notes on a page, or spinning and beat matching discs, or whatever. The demands of the profession are really no different than CS, yet I think representation is very similar.

missizii 16y ago

I'm not a fan of the male-stereotyping in the article. At best, it's unproductive, at worst, it insults men and so they stop listening. A lot of the responses here on HN though demonstrate exactly why many women leave software engineering. Read these responses and ask if you like your mother, wife, girlfriend, or daughter working with people who have these attitudes. In an all-male group, the level of misogyny is camouflaged because there are no women to talk about. When there's a woman around, it's exposed, because she is both a target of any misogyny PLUS all the discussion about the drama created by it. Most women cope by becoming "one of the guys" and laughing along when someone makes a sexist remark. The stereotype of the un-made-up geeky female hacker exists because a lot of women notice the difference in how they're treated when they wear a skirt, heels, nice hair, and make-up, as opposed to jeans, sneakers, ponytail. It's a lot easier to dress sloppy and not be made a target. Another problem is that a significant amount of workplace happiness derives from having friends at work. It's a lot harder to make friends when you're the only woman and you occasionally wonder, "does he really view me as a friend? or is he flirting? that sounded like flirting." Or consider networking - the best way to advance your career. How do geek guys network? It's not usually golf. Networking with geeky guys usually involves late nights gaming, coding, drinking beer (in my experience). I'm not comfortable going to my single coworkers house to play video games and drink beer until midnight, or staying at work coding with a couple coworkers after everyone else has gone home and the secret mini-fridge in the server room has been opened. It could lead to a bad situation with lots of misunderstanding that could ruin a career. Best to just avoid it. If it wasn't a wide-spread problem, then why does every single woman in the industry feel like it's something she has had to deal with personally? I've been in the industry 5 years and I'm considering leaving because I feel my gender is holding me back. I'm smart and hard working and I can do really well in a field where being a woman isn't going to hurt my career.

geebee 16y ago

I'm arriving to the discussion too late to make a fairly minor point.. but I do think that this blog post misses the boat completely on her dismissal of the fastest growing occupations for women. "We are veterinary technicians not veterinarians, dental assistants not dentists, medical assistants not doctors. We like to believe we have evolved, but the data speaks to something else." Utterly untrue. Women are not doctors? How on earth can she make a statement like this? According to this site: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/charts1982to2007.pdf http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/charts1982to2007.pdf "Since 1982-83, the total number of women entering U.S. medical schools has increased every year (in fact, the annual increases reach back to 1969-1970). Women’s share of the matriculating class has likewise increased. Women went from less than a third (31.4%) of all matriculants in 1982-83 to a high of 49.6 percent in 2003-04. In 2007-08, women were 48.3 percent of all matriculants." This data is a little old, I wouldn't be surprised if women surpass 50% soon.

naner 16y ago

It is much more subtle, but just as ugly. These days, bright, thoughtful, enlightened people assume that the absence of women in certain fields results from women being unable to compete on merit. The assumption that, if someone creates a scholarship for women, it is because otherwise, women can’t hack it. I tend to think it is that women often don't have the type of personality that allows them to enjoy a highly technical field. I can't be the only one whose noticed that a lot of computer scientists have some mildly autistic qualities. I do okay in most social situations but I have gone weeks without talking to anyone (besides the cashier at the grocery store, etc.) and I have been the awkward guy in a number of situations. And I am much better socialized than a lot of my colleges at work and in college. The field appears to attract this type of personality, I don't know why. And women appear to have these problems less frequently and less seriously than men do. And this also jives with her "code cowboy" stereotype.

tynman 16y ago

The school I teach at has recently found that women are actually more valued than their male counterparts by employers at the time of graduation. They've been averaging 4% higher job placement and about $2k higher starting salary; 95% and 62k, respectively, for women. http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=11721767&hl=2 http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=11721767&hl=2

jchonphoenix 16y ago

The thing that bugs me most about articles about "women in CS" is that they seem to ALWAYS ignore the most important contributing factor to why there are fewer women in the field: interest. In my experience at my university, it isn't that women aren't smart enough or dedicated enough to do CS. Its just that they don't find it all that interesting to them. If I found CS boring, I doubt I'd stick around either, regardless of what the opportunities looked like.

STHayden 16y ago

no matter if you think this article is well written or not I'm kinda tired of people's answer to gender inequality. We are not in some golden age of equality. equality has changed for the past 500 years and will continue to change. If you know it's going to change how can you not try and learn why it's changing and how you can affect it?

sn 16y ago

Some, but not all, of women are capable and some, but not all, of men are capable. Perhaps the numbers of capable men exceed the numbers of women. Even so that doesn't mean women as a whole are incapable of excelling with CS. All professionals wants to be treated with respect and not be typecast, whether there is a population of 5 or 500,000 for their particular subgroup. Community members going on about how women are less capable etc. makes for at least a partially self fulfilling prophesy. If a community member is badmouthing my particular subgroup, I am gong to assume they are prejudiced against me. Only the women who really, really love technology will go into a field in which they expect to be significantly discriminated against.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

random_guy 16y ago

This is really sexist, and the very fact that she can get away with it (and even get lots of praise) should make us all reflect on how fucked up social conventions and politically correctness are. I've written about the topic here -> http://usingimho.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/men-and-women-on-rubygems/ http://usingimho.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/men-and-women-on-r... and i've been smiten to death in the comments because i dared to state the fact that only around 1% of the opensource projects on rubygems are made by women and that we all should reflect on that. Here's a passage of her article: I believe it is these tangential code-cowboy qualities women are unable or unwilling to emulate, and not their skill or capacity for abstraction, problem solving, creative thinking, or communication — All of which actually make them better developers Think about if a man dared to write the following: I believe it is this inability to go straight to the point that men are unable or unwilling to emulate, and not their ability to understand other's needs and to understand how social situations work — All of which actually make them better marketers