6 ms·

I am in poverty myself. But when I see this I view it as punishment to those who figured out how to "succeed in life" with regard to acquiring wealth. I realiz

by ge96 9y ago

I am in poverty myself. But when I see this I view it as punishment to those who figured out how to "succeed in life" with regard to acquiring wealth. I realize some things like the tax loopholes of avoiding paying taxes but even so the concept of taxing more when you make more seems like punishment. But I understand too, how much does a person need/what about others that are in need. But then again maybe if they have so much wealth that you can't compete/ever hope to catch up/get on their level. Just seems to me if it's easier to be poor/not get taxed much then why try to get out of it. Believe me I'm still trying my life sucks, uncertainty fear etc...

rosser 9y ago
The vast majority of the "rich" are beneficiaries of generational wealth. They didn't "figure out how to succeed"; they were literally handed everything they have, without ever having to earn a damned thing. If your definition of "success" is "being born to the right parents", you're advocating an even more unequal society than the one we already have. That is straight-up feudal. EDIT: phrasing.
- jerkstate 9y ago
  Do you have a reference for that assertion? According to some quick searches, it seems like that was true in the 70s and earlier, but in the recent decade the majority of millionaires and billionaires are now self-made. Of course, that googling is confirmation bias, so I'm interested in data from the other perspective. http://www.thomasjstanley.com/2014/05/america-where-millionaires-are-self-made/ http://www.thomasjstanley.com/2014/05/america-where-milliona...
  - rosser 9y ago
    My information also comes from Piketty. I appreciate that my confirmation bias is possibly (probably) also in play. The campaign to smear his work, and muddy the waters around his conclusions, probably makes anything short of re-analyzing all of the primary sources one's self an exercise in appealing to authorities whose positions support one's own.
    - tooltalk 9y ago
      I haven't read the Piketty's. Can you cite specific chapters or data?
- ameister14 9y ago
  Define 'rich.' If you're talking billionaires or even millionaires, you're wrong.
- refurb 9y ago
  Most of the Forbes richest are 1st generation rich. Generational wealth gets called out often, but it's not "the vast majority".
- mcbruiser3 9y ago
  inherited wealth often disappears by the third generation
munk-a 9y ago
Please don't. People who are wealthy came by that wealth via a variety of approaches, but the most important factors seem to all be slanted to keep those on top on top. Another good question to ask is if these people even need another 30 billion dollars or if our modern society has the capability to provide a fair standard of living to everyone.
pm90 9y ago
I used to have a similar viewpoint. I grew up close to poverty, and only through landing a great job in technology have I significantly changed my standard of living. So it does seem painful when a quarter of my compensation is taken away in taxes. However, I do think taxation serves a very useful purpose. After a certain level of income/wealth, there is conceivably no need for even more income/wealth. But the cruel irony is that its the very wealthy that keep making a ton of money, due to investments and such. So it certainly makes sense for that money to be taken by the Government and used to try and ensure a basic minimum standard of essential services, such as healthcare, education, nutrition for the destitute etc. I want the community and society that I live in the improve somehow, and am willing to pay for it.
- golergka 9y ago
  If you, personally, are freely willing to pay for it, wouldn't it be better if you could be able to do it of your own free will and not forced to do it?
  - ashark 9y ago
    Voluntary action and overcoming coordination problems don't mix well. Best case is the volunteers overpay tremendously for things that benefit a ton of free-riders (those who benefit, and could pay, but choose not to). Worst case it all falls apart and we invent government to compel cooperation and then crush/conquer any societies that don't follow suit and remain awful, disorganized messes.
  - ProfessorLayton 9y ago
    Thats not at all how taxes work, nor should they.
    - golergka 9y ago
      And that's exactly my point – taxes are money taken by force, while the parent comment somehow talks about how he doesn't mind this money well-spent. If you don't have a choice about something, it's not your free decision, even you happen to like the outcome.
kelnos 9y ago
> But when I see this I view it as punishment to those who figured out how to "succeed in life" with regard to acquiring wealth. And this is one of several reasons why we have income inequality: people such as yourself who are stuck in a bad place don't want help getting out of it. The problem is that you seem to look at rich people as having gotten there as a function of only their own success and hard work, when in reality they got there for a variety of external reasons they had no control over: maybe they were born into wealth, or maybe they were born into a race with structural advantages, or... (the list goes on). The fact that you are in poverty is likely due to a large number of factors that you've had no control over, or never could expect to have control over, even factors that may have been put into place generations before you were born. I'm not saying you bear zero responsibility for your situation or should bear zero responsibility for getting out of it, but it's also patently false that you bear 100% of the fault, and my belief is that you also should not be forced to bear 100% of the responsibility for getting out of it. I'll freely admit that some of my motivations are selfish: I hate the higher crime that poverty brings, which makes me feel less safe. I hate stepping over human feces left by homeless people when I walk around my city. I hate being asked for money on the sidewalk. I want more people who are unburdened by crippling financial worries who can help improve our society. But overall the bottom line is that I hold no illusion that I'm in a secure financial state based solely on my own work and actions. I've had a lot of help along the way, and it's insane to think that it's fair for me to avoid helping others improve their situation.
- ge96 9y ago
  Yeah I can't handle being asked for money too,I inevitably just dump my wallet into their hands (cash). I remember some lady at a train station seeing me do this and was like "Oh you're just handed out money huh? Give me some too." (jokingly) I wasn't born into rich but I was dumb. Your parents/society tries to tell you what not to do in life with regard to finances but nope you know better and you get into debt/fear of being homeless because you're marked (credit) and then you can't apply to places/be denied. I have an okay mind maybe I can get a tech job and get myself out.

by ge96 9y ago

rosser 9y ago

The vast majority of the "rich" are beneficiaries of generational wealth. They didn't "figure out how to succeed"; they were literally handed everything they have, without ever having to earn a damned thing. If your definition of "success" is "being born to the right parents", you're advocating an even more unequal society than the one we already have. That is straight-up feudal. EDIT: phrasing.

jerkstate 9y ago
Do you have a reference for that assertion? According to some quick searches, it seems like that was true in the 70s and earlier, but in the recent decade the majority of millionaires and billionaires are now self-made. Of course, that googling is confirmation bias, so I'm interested in data from the other perspective. http://www.thomasjstanley.com/2014/05/america-where-millionaires-are-self-made/ http://www.thomasjstanley.com/2014/05/america-where-milliona...
- rosser 9y ago
  My information also comes from Piketty. I appreciate that my confirmation bias is possibly (probably) also in play. The campaign to smear his work, and muddy the waters around his conclusions, probably makes anything short of re-analyzing all of the primary sources one's self an exercise in appealing to authorities whose positions support one's own.
  - tooltalk 9y ago
    I haven't read the Piketty's. Can you cite specific chapters or data?
ameister14 9y ago
Define 'rich.' If you're talking billionaires or even millionaires, you're wrong.
refurb 9y ago
Most of the Forbes richest are 1st generation rich. Generational wealth gets called out often, but it's not "the vast majority".
mcbruiser3 9y ago
inherited wealth often disappears by the third generation

munk-a 9y ago

Please don't. People who are wealthy came by that wealth via a variety of approaches, but the most important factors seem to all be slanted to keep those on top on top. Another good question to ask is if these people even need another 30 billion dollars or if our modern society has the capability to provide a fair standard of living to everyone.

pm90 9y ago

I used to have a similar viewpoint. I grew up close to poverty, and only through landing a great job in technology have I significantly changed my standard of living. So it does seem painful when a quarter of my compensation is taken away in taxes. However, I do think taxation serves a very useful purpose. After a certain level of income/wealth, there is conceivably no need for even more income/wealth. But the cruel irony is that its the very wealthy that keep making a ton of money, due to investments and such. So it certainly makes sense for that money to be taken by the Government and used to try and ensure a basic minimum standard of essential services, such as healthcare, education, nutrition for the destitute etc. I want the community and society that I live in the improve somehow, and am willing to pay for it.

golergka 9y ago
If you, personally, are freely willing to pay for it, wouldn't it be better if you could be able to do it of your own free will and not forced to do it?
- ashark 9y ago
  Voluntary action and overcoming coordination problems don't mix well. Best case is the volunteers overpay tremendously for things that benefit a ton of free-riders (those who benefit, and could pay, but choose not to). Worst case it all falls apart and we invent government to compel cooperation and then crush/conquer any societies that don't follow suit and remain awful, disorganized messes.
- ProfessorLayton 9y ago
  Thats not at all how taxes work, nor should they.
  - golergka 9y ago
    And that's exactly my point – taxes are money taken by force, while the parent comment somehow talks about how he doesn't mind this money well-spent. If you don't have a choice about something, it's not your free decision, even you happen to like the outcome.

kelnos 9y ago

> But when I see this I view it as punishment to those who figured out how to "succeed in life" with regard to acquiring wealth. And this is one of several reasons why we have income inequality: people such as yourself who are stuck in a bad place don't want help getting out of it. The problem is that you seem to look at rich people as having gotten there as a function of only their own success and hard work, when in reality they got there for a variety of external reasons they had no control over: maybe they were born into wealth, or maybe they were born into a race with structural advantages, or... (the list goes on). The fact that you are in poverty is likely due to a large number of factors that you've had no control over, or never could expect to have control over, even factors that may have been put into place generations before you were born. I'm not saying you bear zero responsibility for your situation or should bear zero responsibility for getting out of it, but it's also patently false that you bear 100% of the fault, and my belief is that you also should not be forced to bear 100% of the responsibility for getting out of it. I'll freely admit that some of my motivations are selfish: I hate the higher crime that poverty brings, which makes me feel less safe. I hate stepping over human feces left by homeless people when I walk around my city. I hate being asked for money on the sidewalk. I want more people who are unburdened by crippling financial worries who can help improve our society. But overall the bottom line is that I hold no illusion that I'm in a secure financial state based solely on my own work and actions. I've had a lot of help along the way, and it's insane to think that it's fair for me to avoid helping others improve their situation.

ge96 9y ago
Yeah I can't handle being asked for money too,I inevitably just dump my wallet into their hands (cash). I remember some lady at a train station seeing me do this and was like "Oh you're just handed out money huh? Give me some too." (jokingly) I wasn't born into rich but I was dumb. Your parents/society tries to tell you what not to do in life with regard to finances but nope you know better and you get into debt/fear of being homeless because you're marked (credit) and then you can't apply to places/be denied. I have an okay mind maybe I can get a tech job and get myself out.