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I don't think it's an overstatement to say that, since playing Lee Sedol in 2016, AlphaGo has completely revolutionized professional and amateur go. It's certai

by kndyry 9y ago

I don't think it's an overstatement to say that, since playing Lee Sedol in 2016, AlphaGo has completely revolutionized professional and amateur go. It's certainly not unprecedented — the last major revolution happened in the early 20th century (often called the 'Shin Fuseki' era [0]) — but AlphaGo has demonstrably surpassed any previous high-water mark. > I wonder if this system produced more new styles of play. Absolutely. One such innovation has been the use of early 3-3 invasions [1]. There are many more, and indeed AlphaGo's games are still being analyzed by professional players. Michael Redmond, a 9-dan professional, has been working with the American Go Association on one such series [2]. > I wonder if the fact that it had no outside reinforcement made it produce movements that we have already seen that are somehow inherent to the game... Interestingly, yes. Strong players have commented that AlphaGo seems to agree with things that players like Go Seigen [3] have suggested in the past, but that were never fully developed or understood [4]. Very, very interesting work indeed. [0] https://senseis.xmp.net/?ShinFuseki https://senseis.xmp.net/?ShinFuseki [1] https://www.eurogofed.org/index.html?id=127 https://www.eurogofed.org/index.html?id=127 [2] http://www.usgo.org/news/category/go-news/computer-goai/masteralphago-commentaries/ http://www.usgo.org/news/category/go-news/computer-goai/mast... [3] https://senseis.xmp.net/?GoSeigen https://senseis.xmp.net/?GoSeigen [4] https://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14129 https://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14129

alex_stoddard 9y ago
I have only skimmed the paper but one thing I don't see any discussion of is whether komi (the handicap given to white for going second) is correct. They do say the rules used for all games, including self-play, set komi consistently to 7.5 . If the strongest AI was consistently winning predominantly with one color it would be an indication that komi isn't fair for the best play. Of the 20 games released for the strongest play it appears white won 14 times and black 6. I don't think that is enough to be conclusive but maybe komi is too high. I wonder if different "correct" play at the strongest levels would be learned with a 6.5 komi.
- gizmo686 9y ago
  You can only change komi by full point increments. There is a .5 to break ties, but a komi of 7.5 is identical to one of 7.4. From a theoretical standpoint, any non-integer komi should lead to one player winning 100% of the time. So even if the actual win ratio is 14:6 at komi=7.5 that might still be the best value.
  - btilly 9y ago
    If you had an estimate of the real difference, you could switch to breaking ties randomly. Black wins 60% of the ties, white wins 40%. There will be a ratio at which each side should win 50% of the time. I agree that with perfect play, it will be a 50% of a tie to each side. But it is still interesting to ask for a better estimate of practical play.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- Jach 9y ago
  I don't remember where I read it but in some earlier versions of AlphaGo they tried a komi of 6.5 and black ended up winning more often. That indicates the correct komi value is 7, but since Go doesn't have ties, you have to pick which side you want to favor to break the tie. (White seems reasonable.)
  - conistonwater 9y ago
    That doesn't sound right because in Chinese rules, which is what AG uses, komi only changes in steps of two. Are you sure about 6.5? Could it be 5.5?
    - Jach 9y ago
      Well in Japanese rules the komi is 6.5 so that's the alternative that tends to come up. Some quick searching I found a transcript from one of the games where DeepMind said 7.5 slightly favors white but they didn't say anything about 6.5 or 5.5, while a random comment from r/baduk claims that pro game analysis shows 6.5 slightly favors black and 7.5 slightly favors white.
Spare_account 9y ago
With respect to your very interesting comment (I genuinely appreciate your input), you appear to have mis-understood the comment you were replying to. You've commented on the differences in the style of play that AlphaGo introduced, but the post you were replying to (by aeleos) was going a step further and hypothesising about the potential for a newer, completely 'non-human' style that AlphaGo Zero may have created. Your comments definitely contribute to the discussion but it was bugging me that there appeared to be a tangent forming about AlphaGo that was overlooking AlphaGo Zero which would be the more interesting area to explore.
- posterboy 9y ago
  "more new styles of play" seems to indicate that non-human play.
  - Spare_account 9y ago
    Yes, aeleos was interested in that, and so am I, and it seems to be what this entire thread _should be about_. kndyry steered back towards AlphaGo. I'm not sure this merits any further disection.

by kndyry 9y ago

alex_stoddard 9y ago

I have only skimmed the paper but one thing I don't see any discussion of is whether komi (the handicap given to white for going second) is correct. They do say the rules used for all games, including self-play, set komi consistently to 7.5 . If the strongest AI was consistently winning predominantly with one color it would be an indication that komi isn't fair for the best play. Of the 20 games released for the strongest play it appears white won 14 times and black 6. I don't think that is enough to be conclusive but maybe komi is too high. I wonder if different "correct" play at the strongest levels would be learned with a 6.5 komi.

gizmo686 9y ago
You can only change komi by full point increments. There is a .5 to break ties, but a komi of 7.5 is identical to one of 7.4. From a theoretical standpoint, any non-integer komi should lead to one player winning 100% of the time. So even if the actual win ratio is 14:6 at komi=7.5 that might still be the best value.
- btilly 9y ago
  If you had an estimate of the real difference, you could switch to breaking ties randomly. Black wins 60% of the ties, white wins 40%. There will be a ratio at which each side should win 50% of the time. I agree that with perfect play, it will be a 50% of a tie to each side. But it is still interesting to ask for a better estimate of practical play.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
Jach 9y ago
I don't remember where I read it but in some earlier versions of AlphaGo they tried a komi of 6.5 and black ended up winning more often. That indicates the correct komi value is 7, but since Go doesn't have ties, you have to pick which side you want to favor to break the tie. (White seems reasonable.)
- conistonwater 9y ago
  That doesn't sound right because in Chinese rules, which is what AG uses, komi only changes in steps of two. Are you sure about 6.5? Could it be 5.5?
  - Jach 9y ago
    Well in Japanese rules the komi is 6.5 so that's the alternative that tends to come up. Some quick searching I found a transcript from one of the games where DeepMind said 7.5 slightly favors white but they didn't say anything about 6.5 or 5.5, while a random comment from r/baduk claims that pro game analysis shows 6.5 slightly favors black and 7.5 slightly favors white.

Spare_account 9y ago

With respect to your very interesting comment (I genuinely appreciate your input), you appear to have mis-understood the comment you were replying to. You've commented on the differences in the style of play that AlphaGo introduced, but the post you were replying to (by aeleos) was going a step further and hypothesising about the potential for a newer, completely 'non-human' style that AlphaGo Zero may have created. Your comments definitely contribute to the discussion but it was bugging me that there appeared to be a tangent forming about AlphaGo that was overlooking AlphaGo Zero which would be the more interesting area to explore.

posterboy 9y ago
"more new styles of play" seems to indicate that non-human play.
- Spare_account 9y ago
  Yes, aeleos was interested in that, and so am I, and it seems to be what this entire thread _should be about_. kndyry steered back towards AlphaGo. I'm not sure this merits any further disection.