4 ms·

Right, let's start by redistributing the wealth held by people in silicon valley making more than 50k a year. Think of all the people we could lift out of pover

Right, let's start by redistributing the wealth held by people in silicon valley making more than 50k a year. Think of all the people we could lift out of poverty if all us tech folks just gave up our wealth! I'm sure we could do without that second helping of avocado toast each day. The solution is obviously to steal from the wealthy and give it to the poor.

norswap 9y ago
What's so ridiculous about that? That's pretty much how it works in many "welfare" states across Europe (I'm from Belgium). I don't find the thought of not being able to afford healthcare if bad luck strikes very appealing.
- nicolashahn 9y ago
  It's not ridiculous at all, in fact some of us are paying 45% of our salary in taxes already!
  - lobf 9y ago
    I'm not in tech and I'm not making nearly the salaries that most of you guys are making- I'm paying 40% of my checks in taxes. So yeah, if you're making double what I'm making, maybe pay in a bit more. What's so crazy about that?
    - twiceaday 9y ago
      Roads and bridges are not bought with tax percentages, they are bought with tax dollars. Somebody making twice as much as you paying the same tax rate is paying twice as much tax as you.
      - munk-a 9y ago
        Somebody making twice as much as me can afford to pay more than twice as much as me in taxes and still make more money than me. Money has diminishing returns anyways.
        nicolashahn 9y ago
        This is how tax brackets work. The system is already in place. Tuning the numbers is what we seemingly can't agree on.
        lobf 9y ago
        I don't know why you downvoted me- I'm in favor of tiers.
monodeldiablo 9y ago
Why is the redistribution of societal wealth "stealing" when it comes from rich people, but "earned" when it comes from poor people? Poor people suffer far more theft on a daily basis -- they are forced to pay higher rates for credit, they spend vastly more time interacting with the bureaucracy while receiving substantially fewer benefits, and the terrible options available to them for healthy living robs them of quality twilight years -- but we rich folks kick up an almighty fuss any time it's suggested that we redress this balance by paying tiny bit more in taxes. So little, in fact, that it wouldn't likely impact our lifestyles in the slightest. I live in a high-tax country now and, although I receive a smaller paycheck than I did back in the US, I'm richer in almost every other way. The crime rate is effectively zero. There's no homelessness. Substance abuse and its associated ill effects are exceedingly rare. My family and my neighbors' families are healthy -- owing to the free universal health care we all receive, regardless of income or status -- so the risk of communicable disease is extremely low. So don't think of wealth redistribution as "stealing from the wealthy and giving to the poor". Think of it as "investing in a healthy and sizable middle class". Like the one our parents grew up in. The one that oversaw the most prosperous period in world history. The one now being systematically dismantled by we privileged few.
- jernfrost 9y ago
  It is only stealing, when the premise is that there is no society, democracy or state, and everything you ever earned was earned completely independent of everything else. At least that is what the neo-liberal fantasy world seems to be. They treat capitalism as if it some natural law of nature. Every capitalist has to make their money within a society. That society is what enables them to become rich. Put Bill Gates in Somalia as a child, and there never would have been a Microsoft and he never would have been a billionaire. Bill Gates and his fortune is a product of the society he grew up in which is shaped by democratic participation, deciding on what should and should not be taxed. If a democracy says we can increase taxes on the wealthy, then that is just a choice, not stealing.
  - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
    > That society is what enables them to become rich. Somewhat true. Where you go with it is false, though. You seem to think that the society is all that enabled them to become rich. But if that's true, why does Bill Gates have more money than me? I'm in the same society. > If a democracy says we can increase taxes on the wealthy, then that is just a choice, not stealing. That presumes that everything a democracy decides on is just a choice - that it can't be wrong. I disagree with that statement. More, I think history disagrees with that statement.
jernfrost 9y ago
It is mind boggling how many Americans think wealth redistribution is this crazy impossible thing, which will mean massive downgrades in ones economic well being. We've done this shit in Europe for a long time. I live in Norway and make about 90K or so in the tech business. I pay roughly 34% in income tax. How is that so bad. Americans tend to grossly exaggerate by talking about marginal tax rate rather than their actual effective tax rate. Of course the rates might not be hugely different, but that is partly because most Europeans pay a lot more taxes in other areas. Sales tax in Norway is 25%. Alcohol and cigarettes have very high taxes and so does cars with big engines. Car taxes could be 200-300% at its worst. However electric cars have no taxes, so there is a way out ;-) Honestly though, I don't think wealth distribution purely through taxes is the way to go. That is not how we created equality in Norway. A lot has to do with the corporatist model where big employer and employee unions set wages in big national bargains. This combined with public education with very even quality, levels the playing field. Education in America is extremely uneven in the US and that creates a very uneven playing field. In the US education is sort of monopolized. People can't go to schools other than their local school district unless of course they pay a private school. That means poor people are locked out of good schools. In Norway I can send my kids to any school. However I send them to one of the closest schools because academic quality of schools is not that different from each other. Richer schools can't bid for better teachers etc. In fact schools in poorer neighborhoods are more likely to get more money to compensate for their relative disadvantage.
- ameister14 9y ago
  >Honestly though, I don't think wealth distribution purely through taxes is the way to go. That is not how we created equality in Norway. A lot has to do with the corporatist model where big employer and employee unions set wages in big national bargains. This combined with public education with very even quality, levels the playing field. Being incredibly resource rich in comparison to your population numbers helps - that's most of the underpinning for the welfare economy of Norway, if I'm not mistaken, not income taxes or taxes on cigarettes. Totally agree as far as education is concerned, though.
- tiggybear 9y ago
  well we hate poor people...and for good reason, they don't work hard enough and they bring all of us down. /s

norswap 9y ago

What's so ridiculous about that? That's pretty much how it works in many "welfare" states across Europe (I'm from Belgium). I don't find the thought of not being able to afford healthcare if bad luck strikes very appealing.

nicolashahn 9y ago
It's not ridiculous at all, in fact some of us are paying 45% of our salary in taxes already!
- lobf 9y ago
  I'm not in tech and I'm not making nearly the salaries that most of you guys are making- I'm paying 40% of my checks in taxes. So yeah, if you're making double what I'm making, maybe pay in a bit more. What's so crazy about that?
  - twiceaday 9y ago
    Roads and bridges are not bought with tax percentages, they are bought with tax dollars. Somebody making twice as much as you paying the same tax rate is paying twice as much tax as you.
    - munk-a 9y ago
      Somebody making twice as much as me can afford to pay more than twice as much as me in taxes and still make more money than me. Money has diminishing returns anyways.
      - nicolashahn 9y ago
        This is how tax brackets work. The system is already in place. Tuning the numbers is what we seemingly can't agree on.
        lobf 9y ago
        I don't know why you downvoted me- I'm in favor of tiers.

monodeldiablo 9y ago

Why is the redistribution of societal wealth "stealing" when it comes from rich people, but "earned" when it comes from poor people? Poor people suffer far more theft on a daily basis -- they are forced to pay higher rates for credit, they spend vastly more time interacting with the bureaucracy while receiving substantially fewer benefits, and the terrible options available to them for healthy living robs them of quality twilight years -- but we rich folks kick up an almighty fuss any time it's suggested that we redress this balance by paying tiny bit more in taxes. So little, in fact, that it wouldn't likely impact our lifestyles in the slightest. I live in a high-tax country now and, although I receive a smaller paycheck than I did back in the US, I'm richer in almost every other way. The crime rate is effectively zero. There's no homelessness. Substance abuse and its associated ill effects are exceedingly rare. My family and my neighbors' families are healthy -- owing to the free universal health care we all receive, regardless of income or status -- so the risk of communicable disease is extremely low. So don't think of wealth redistribution as "stealing from the wealthy and giving to the poor". Think of it as "investing in a healthy and sizable middle class". Like the one our parents grew up in. The one that oversaw the most prosperous period in world history. The one now being systematically dismantled by we privileged few.

jernfrost 9y ago
It is only stealing, when the premise is that there is no society, democracy or state, and everything you ever earned was earned completely independent of everything else. At least that is what the neo-liberal fantasy world seems to be. They treat capitalism as if it some natural law of nature. Every capitalist has to make their money within a society. That society is what enables them to become rich. Put Bill Gates in Somalia as a child, and there never would have been a Microsoft and he never would have been a billionaire. Bill Gates and his fortune is a product of the society he grew up in which is shaped by democratic participation, deciding on what should and should not be taxed. If a democracy says we can increase taxes on the wealthy, then that is just a choice, not stealing.
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  > That society is what enables them to become rich. Somewhat true. Where you go with it is false, though. You seem to think that the society is all that enabled them to become rich. But if that's true, why does Bill Gates have more money than me? I'm in the same society. > If a democracy says we can increase taxes on the wealthy, then that is just a choice, not stealing. That presumes that everything a democracy decides on is just a choice - that it can't be wrong. I disagree with that statement. More, I think history disagrees with that statement.

jernfrost 9y ago

It is mind boggling how many Americans think wealth redistribution is this crazy impossible thing, which will mean massive downgrades in ones economic well being. We've done this shit in Europe for a long time. I live in Norway and make about 90K or so in the tech business. I pay roughly 34% in income tax. How is that so bad. Americans tend to grossly exaggerate by talking about marginal tax rate rather than their actual effective tax rate. Of course the rates might not be hugely different, but that is partly because most Europeans pay a lot more taxes in other areas. Sales tax in Norway is 25%. Alcohol and cigarettes have very high taxes and so does cars with big engines. Car taxes could be 200-300% at its worst. However electric cars have no taxes, so there is a way out ;-) Honestly though, I don't think wealth distribution purely through taxes is the way to go. That is not how we created equality in Norway. A lot has to do with the corporatist model where big employer and employee unions set wages in big national bargains. This combined with public education with very even quality, levels the playing field. Education in America is extremely uneven in the US and that creates a very uneven playing field. In the US education is sort of monopolized. People can't go to schools other than their local school district unless of course they pay a private school. That means poor people are locked out of good schools. In Norway I can send my kids to any school. However I send them to one of the closest schools because academic quality of schools is not that different from each other. Richer schools can't bid for better teachers etc. In fact schools in poorer neighborhoods are more likely to get more money to compensate for their relative disadvantage.

ameister14 9y ago
>Honestly though, I don't think wealth distribution purely through taxes is the way to go. That is not how we created equality in Norway. A lot has to do with the corporatist model where big employer and employee unions set wages in big national bargains. This combined with public education with very even quality, levels the playing field. Being incredibly resource rich in comparison to your population numbers helps - that's most of the underpinning for the welfare economy of Norway, if I'm not mistaken, not income taxes or taxes on cigarettes. Totally agree as far as education is concerned, though.
tiggybear 9y ago
well we hate poor people...and for good reason, they don't work hard enough and they bring all of us down. /s