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Ads are not the main privacy issue any longer, since there’s client-side protection against them. Now the issue is your ISP getting into the marketing/data-mon

Ads are not the main privacy issue any longer, since there’s client-side protection against them. Now the issue is your ISP getting into the marketing/data-monger business, since they have the keys to your privacy kingdom and are becoming increasingly desperate for profits. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2017/03/30/fcc-privacy-rules-how-isps-will-actually-sell-your-data/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrew...

javajosh 9y ago
Yeah, it's too bad that knowing the physical position of your customers is a technical requirement for the wireless ISP industry. That said, knowing their identity is not a technical requirement. I wonder if it's feasible to construct an ISP that still must know where all it's customers are, but can't distinguish between them.
- kakarot 9y ago
  Networking and behavioral analysis will probably render such obfuscation useless for most subjects.
JoshMnem 9y ago
I don't think that there is much client-side protection against ads on mobile devices (outside of Firefox's browsers), at least on Android.
- TACIXAT 9y ago
  Firefox Focus is solving such a pain point for me. Browsing the web on mobile feels like 2002 desktop with all the flashing, scrolling, pop overs. It's a nightmare. The companies that rely on ads for revenue took the thing that made adblockers so commonplace and did it on mobile.
  - gcb0 9y ago
    "anything on a unrooted mobile feels like 2002 desktop with all the flashing, scrolling, pop overs. It's a nightmare." fixed it for you.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - jraph 9y ago
      Stock rom without root was pretty decent for me. No ads at all. However, I only use free software apps mostly from F-Droid (and uBlock Origin takes care of the web). I knew that this was putting myself in a bubble, but I had not realized that the experience of using a phone for a lot of people must be that annoying. What a shame. Computers should serve humans, not the other way round! I discovered Google Play's App Store on someone else's phone, that was painful and stressful. But what you are describing seems hellish.
    - KozmoNau7 9y ago
      The main problem with rooting my phone is that a number of apps I use will stop working, including the de facto standard mobile payment app in my country. If you rein in the notifications (ie. switch them all off), use Firefox with uBlock Origin (or Firefox Focus) and avoid using apps with obnoxious ads (or switch to the paid versions), Android as of 2017 is quite nice.
    - TACIXAT 9y ago
      I used to root the devices I got. Relying on CM supporting my device or totally breaking carrier updates got old though. I switched to Google Fi and am using a Nexus 6P (Android 8) and it's really nice. I wanted to get a PCAP from an app a few nights ago, I was surprised it was possible without root. Now there are apps that can act as a VPN to sniff traffic. Having the most up to date firmware and Google Fi's international rates are worth giving up root to me. It would be nice if they built in secure root access interface to Android though.
- nacs 9y ago
  iOS has a bunch of apps that do ad-blocking in the App store. It works well in Safari.
  - vosper 9y ago
    Mozilla Focus does this - you don't have to use the Focus browser, just enable it as a content blocker for Safari. Works great.
  - B4TMAN 9y ago
    Those adblockers aren’t effective in blocking in-app ads. I don’t know which combination of apps will totally black out the apps on iPhones.
- uerrarcv 9y ago
  Adguard android app does full-device ad blocking including __native apps__ by setting up a local VPN. It's a proprietary app, and there are some open source alternatives such as MinMinGuard or DNS66, but the difference is that Adguard inserts their js into html, effectively running a browser extension.
- Sir_Substance 9y ago
  If you root your phone, you can modify the hosts file to blackhole any address you please. That will affect every part of the system that attempts to dial out to those addresses, including native apps. On behalf of the Linux community, no need to thank us, you're welcome.
abalone 9y ago
> Ads are not the main privacy issue any longer, since there’s client-side protection against them. False. There is client-side protection in some browsers now, but this attack exploits native apps that submit precise geolocation when requesting location-targeted ads. It demonstrates how to essentially reverse engineer that precise location with a matrix of ads crafted for this purpose.
- roblabla 9y ago
  My phone (Android/LineageOS) blocks native ads too. There's adaway that does this nicely. Client-side protection exists.
  - Twirrim 9y ago
    also DNS66 helps
  - abalone 9y ago
    The claim was not merely that client-side protection "exists." It was that ads are not a privacy issue any longer, implying a ubiquitous native solution, which is false. It's great that some OSes are trying to solve it system-wide but host blocking isn't viable as ubiquitous protection against this attack. It would just break all ads all the time, which ultimately would make the platform untenable for ad-based apps. What you want is something like the machine-learning Intelligent Tracking Prevention that Safari just rolled out, but applied to native apps. That is non-trivial.
    - Feniks 9y ago
      "It would just break all ads all the time" Sounds like a feature not a bug. Anyways I'm sure tech savvy folks who care about privacy and hate ads already have all the basic angles covered. I know I do!
- _puk 9y ago
  There is a bit of an arms race between get a few $/c extra CPM by spoofing the geo location (the app needs to ask for this, and have reason to from App Store perspective, so not always available), and the data aggregators detecting said spoofing (all clients having the same geo / patterns in geo etc). Reverse engineering will get you a PoC, but you can buy the cleansed data fairly easily (apparently..)
pcl 9y ago
It's ironic that your citation is a Google AMP link... Not only does the AMP-proxy situation further disenfranchise the ISPs, it also funnels all that value to Google.
SmokyBourbon 9y ago
This is not an issue in the United States as it is already illegal for ISPs to release this information.
dsgfhasgjklas 9y ago
> Ads are not the main privacy issue any longer, since there’s client-side protection against them. Not really, though, at least for ios. On android there are at least firefox + extensions, but there's nothing quite capable/available on ios at the moment.
- djrogers 9y ago
  What? There have been iOS ad blockers for ages, with official APIs and support since iOS 9.
  - dsgfhasgjklas 9y ago
    Right, and none of them come close to a well-configured ublock install. I happen to use purify (after choosing it over others) and regularly see both ads and tracking network requests.
code_duck 9y ago
What percentage of users have client side protection active on mobile? I'm guessing it's currently very low.
MR4D 9y ago
I think the whole “ISP data” issue is a red herring. Google, Facebook, etc already gather everything about you unless you go to extreme measures. The only reason those tech companies are against ISP tracking is that it hurts their revenue model...significantly. Don’t by in to the easy explanation - look at their motivations.

javajosh 9y ago

Yeah, it's too bad that knowing the physical position of your customers is a technical requirement for the wireless ISP industry. That said, knowing their identity is not a technical requirement. I wonder if it's feasible to construct an ISP that still must know where all it's customers are, but can't distinguish between them.

kakarot 9y ago
Networking and behavioral analysis will probably render such obfuscation useless for most subjects.

JoshMnem 9y ago

I don't think that there is much client-side protection against ads on mobile devices (outside of Firefox's browsers), at least on Android.

TACIXAT 9y ago
Firefox Focus is solving such a pain point for me. Browsing the web on mobile feels like 2002 desktop with all the flashing, scrolling, pop overs. It's a nightmare. The companies that rely on ads for revenue took the thing that made adblockers so commonplace and did it on mobile.
- gcb0 9y ago
  "anything on a unrooted mobile feels like 2002 desktop with all the flashing, scrolling, pop overs. It's a nightmare." fixed it for you.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - jraph 9y ago
    Stock rom without root was pretty decent for me. No ads at all. However, I only use free software apps mostly from F-Droid (and uBlock Origin takes care of the web). I knew that this was putting myself in a bubble, but I had not realized that the experience of using a phone for a lot of people must be that annoying. What a shame. Computers should serve humans, not the other way round! I discovered Google Play's App Store on someone else's phone, that was painful and stressful. But what you are describing seems hellish.
  - KozmoNau7 9y ago
    The main problem with rooting my phone is that a number of apps I use will stop working, including the de facto standard mobile payment app in my country. If you rein in the notifications (ie. switch them all off), use Firefox with uBlock Origin (or Firefox Focus) and avoid using apps with obnoxious ads (or switch to the paid versions), Android as of 2017 is quite nice.
  - TACIXAT 9y ago
    I used to root the devices I got. Relying on CM supporting my device or totally breaking carrier updates got old though. I switched to Google Fi and am using a Nexus 6P (Android 8) and it's really nice. I wanted to get a PCAP from an app a few nights ago, I was surprised it was possible without root. Now there are apps that can act as a VPN to sniff traffic. Having the most up to date firmware and Google Fi's international rates are worth giving up root to me. It would be nice if they built in secure root access interface to Android though.
nacs 9y ago
iOS has a bunch of apps that do ad-blocking in the App store. It works well in Safari.
- vosper 9y ago
  Mozilla Focus does this - you don't have to use the Focus browser, just enable it as a content blocker for Safari. Works great.
- B4TMAN 9y ago
  Those adblockers aren’t effective in blocking in-app ads. I don’t know which combination of apps will totally black out the apps on iPhones.
uerrarcv 9y ago
Adguard android app does full-device ad blocking including __native apps__ by setting up a local VPN. It's a proprietary app, and there are some open source alternatives such as MinMinGuard or DNS66, but the difference is that Adguard inserts their js into html, effectively running a browser extension.
Sir_Substance 9y ago
If you root your phone, you can modify the hosts file to blackhole any address you please. That will affect every part of the system that attempts to dial out to those addresses, including native apps. On behalf of the Linux community, no need to thank us, you're welcome.

abalone 9y ago

> Ads are not the main privacy issue any longer, since there’s client-side protection against them. False. There is client-side protection in some browsers now, but this attack exploits native apps that submit precise geolocation when requesting location-targeted ads. It demonstrates how to essentially reverse engineer that precise location with a matrix of ads crafted for this purpose.

roblabla 9y ago
My phone (Android/LineageOS) blocks native ads too. There's adaway that does this nicely. Client-side protection exists.
- Twirrim 9y ago
  also DNS66 helps
- abalone 9y ago
  The claim was not merely that client-side protection "exists." It was that ads are not a privacy issue any longer, implying a ubiquitous native solution, which is false. It's great that some OSes are trying to solve it system-wide but host blocking isn't viable as ubiquitous protection against this attack. It would just break all ads all the time, which ultimately would make the platform untenable for ad-based apps. What you want is something like the machine-learning Intelligent Tracking Prevention that Safari just rolled out, but applied to native apps. That is non-trivial.
  - Feniks 9y ago
    "It would just break all ads all the time" Sounds like a feature not a bug. Anyways I'm sure tech savvy folks who care about privacy and hate ads already have all the basic angles covered. I know I do!
_puk 9y ago
There is a bit of an arms race between get a few $/c extra CPM by spoofing the geo location (the app needs to ask for this, and have reason to from App Store perspective, so not always available), and the data aggregators detecting said spoofing (all clients having the same geo / patterns in geo etc). Reverse engineering will get you a PoC, but you can buy the cleansed data fairly easily (apparently..)

pcl 9y ago

It's ironic that your citation is a Google AMP link... Not only does the AMP-proxy situation further disenfranchise the ISPs, it also funnels all that value to Google.

SmokyBourbon 9y ago

This is not an issue in the United States as it is already illegal for ISPs to release this information.

dsgfhasgjklas 9y ago

> Ads are not the main privacy issue any longer, since there’s client-side protection against them. Not really, though, at least for ios. On android there are at least firefox + extensions, but there's nothing quite capable/available on ios at the moment.

djrogers 9y ago
What? There have been iOS ad blockers for ages, with official APIs and support since iOS 9.
- dsgfhasgjklas 9y ago
  Right, and none of them come close to a well-configured ublock install. I happen to use purify (after choosing it over others) and regularly see both ads and tracking network requests.

code_duck 9y ago

What percentage of users have client side protection active on mobile? I'm guessing it's currently very low.

MR4D 9y ago

I think the whole “ISP data” issue is a red herring. Google, Facebook, etc already gather everything about you unless you go to extreme measures. The only reason those tech companies are against ISP tracking is that it hurts their revenue model...significantly. Don’t by in to the easy explanation - look at their motivations.