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> How do you know if they are still using it internally? It could have wide adoption inside Microsoft. > They built this to scratch an itch, then they opened t

by j_s 9y ago

> How do you know if they are still using it internally? It could have wide adoption inside Microsoft. > They built this to scratch an itch, then they opened the source, but that's still not enough? I'm honestly not sure where this question is coming from. The issue I linked is on a port of Redis to Windows done back when Microsoft Open Technologies was temporarily spun out as a subsidiary, and is one of many there reflecting frustration at Microsoft's mismanagement of the project, especially lack of communication regarding long-term support. It serves as a recent example of how Microsoft drops a low-priority open source project. Microsoft is building a strong track record with open source projects that they completely control, but less so when they don't. I believe this is relevant here because of Napa.js's tight coupling with Node.js.

WorldMaker 9y ago
The entire goal for the fork was to try to convince upstream (antirez) to eventually merge the needed changes for a better experience for Windows users. Just as any other distro doesn't want to long term maintain a fork and prefers to merge changes upstream as much as it possibly can. In the case of redis, the fork didn't entirely meet upstream needs/considerations and the Windows distro didn't have the resources to continue a long term fork. Microsoft Open Technologies had some successes here too: off the top of my head NodeJS and Git both have gotten much better on Windows as a result of work that Microsoft Open Technologies started in forks and eventually got merged upstream. The NAPI work to support both V8 and ChakraCore continues at a reasonable pace precisely because there is upstream engagement, upstream merging, and NodeJS-ChakraCore is less of a full fork more like a distro-specific build flag. Plus, the priority on things like Redis for Windows shifted with the Windows Subsystem for Linux; there was less need to get open source projects to treat Windows as a supported distro directly when Windows can piggy back off of Ubuntu (or SUSE or Fedora) distro work. None of that solves lack of communication about the forks left on the vine, and it is a shame there isn't strong redis support on Windows, but everyone has priorities, including antirez, and even if those priorities aren't communicated fully, they seem to at least be somewhat transparent to this humble developer from the outside of either work.
- tmzt 9y ago
  I'd like to see something come out of their OpenSSH fork to support AD and PSRemoting/WinRM.
- j_s 9y ago
  So what is your prediction on the long-term viability of Napa.js? Also, any feedback on the timeline would be appreciated, specifically how long to wait before evaluating the probability of long-term support from Microsoft. In my mind, it will have to attract a strong enough community to survive without Microsoft's financial support which will probably shut down in a year or two. It's interesting because if it does hit critical mass that increases the likelihood that it will continue to be funded.
  - WorldMaker 9y ago
    That's a good question. Ignoring past headaches you've had with Microsoft's support of open source, how do you evaluate any open source tool for use in production and/or for long-term viability? In the NodeJS world, sometimes "long-term" means 9 months it feels like. In open source, sometimes "support" means "file a PR if you care so much about that bug" or "fork it yourself". Are you perhaps expecting a longer term or more support because it is Microsoft behind it? It looks actively maintained right now, but its published semver is 0.x. There are a lot of 0.x libraries in active use in NodeJS, but it's still semver-obvious grain of salt from the maintainers to keep in mind when considering it for support. The README tells us that it was directly built to support a production need in Bing today. That seems like as big of a vote of support confidence as you might get from an open source project that a team has vested interest in it. On the other hand, Bing isn't inside Microsoft's developer division, so they have fewer vested interests in supporting outside developers long term. It's also possible that at some point in the future they get internally sold on a developer division or Windows division or Azure alternative that Microsoft has financial or marketing reasons to commercialize. If I had a production need for something like Napa.js I don't see any particular red flags to avoid it, it looks like it should be easy enough to migrate to something else down the road if necessary, and would probably consider it.

by j_s 9y ago

WorldMaker 9y ago

The entire goal for the fork was to try to convince upstream (antirez) to eventually merge the needed changes for a better experience for Windows users. Just as any other distro doesn't want to long term maintain a fork and prefers to merge changes upstream as much as it possibly can. In the case of redis, the fork didn't entirely meet upstream needs/considerations and the Windows distro didn't have the resources to continue a long term fork. Microsoft Open Technologies had some successes here too: off the top of my head NodeJS and Git both have gotten much better on Windows as a result of work that Microsoft Open Technologies started in forks and eventually got merged upstream. The NAPI work to support both V8 and ChakraCore continues at a reasonable pace precisely because there is upstream engagement, upstream merging, and NodeJS-ChakraCore is less of a full fork more like a distro-specific build flag. Plus, the priority on things like Redis for Windows shifted with the Windows Subsystem for Linux; there was less need to get open source projects to treat Windows as a supported distro directly when Windows can piggy back off of Ubuntu (or SUSE or Fedora) distro work. None of that solves lack of communication about the forks left on the vine, and it is a shame there isn't strong redis support on Windows, but everyone has priorities, including antirez, and even if those priorities aren't communicated fully, they seem to at least be somewhat transparent to this humble developer from the outside of either work.

tmzt 9y ago
I'd like to see something come out of their OpenSSH fork to support AD and PSRemoting/WinRM.
j_s 9y ago
So what is your prediction on the long-term viability of Napa.js? Also, any feedback on the timeline would be appreciated, specifically how long to wait before evaluating the probability of long-term support from Microsoft. In my mind, it will have to attract a strong enough community to survive without Microsoft's financial support which will probably shut down in a year or two. It's interesting because if it does hit critical mass that increases the likelihood that it will continue to be funded.
- WorldMaker 9y ago
  That's a good question. Ignoring past headaches you've had with Microsoft's support of open source, how do you evaluate any open source tool for use in production and/or for long-term viability? In the NodeJS world, sometimes "long-term" means 9 months it feels like. In open source, sometimes "support" means "file a PR if you care so much about that bug" or "fork it yourself". Are you perhaps expecting a longer term or more support because it is Microsoft behind it? It looks actively maintained right now, but its published semver is 0.x. There are a lot of 0.x libraries in active use in NodeJS, but it's still semver-obvious grain of salt from the maintainers to keep in mind when considering it for support. The README tells us that it was directly built to support a production need in Bing today. That seems like as big of a vote of support confidence as you might get from an open source project that a team has vested interest in it. On the other hand, Bing isn't inside Microsoft's developer division, so they have fewer vested interests in supporting outside developers long term. It's also possible that at some point in the future they get internally sold on a developer division or Windows division or Azure alternative that Microsoft has financial or marketing reasons to commercialize. If I had a production need for something like Napa.js I don't see any particular red flags to avoid it, it looks like it should be easy enough to migrate to something else down the road if necessary, and would probably consider it.