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> What does it mean to say it is bad? How about this: if in advance of the behavior, you intend to partake moderately, and in the event you consistently overin

> What does it mean to say it is bad? How about this: if in advance of the behavior, you intend to partake moderately, and in the event you consistently overindulge, and after the fact you regret your excess, then something about this behavior is bad. I'm leaving aside some of the other points you bring up, but if you've got a habit that consistently leads to dissatisfaction and regret, I think it's fair to call it a problem for that reason alone.

msg 16y ago
You're assuming that dissatisfaction and regret mean the activity was bad. What if you overindulge in learning and regret knowing all kinds of details about Lisp? Some outside observers don't consider your time wasted, quite the contrary. But by your measurement, regretting knowing Lisp would mean that knowing Lisp is bad. My point is that you can always pick opposing activities that people will feel are time wasted or well-spent. But why? Because you have some implicit notion of ultimate value that helps you weigh time spent on one or the other. In the absence of such a theory of good and evil you might as well criticize pg for becoming addicted to hiking or addicted to insightful thinking. Cool for him, but he's wasting his life if he doesn't have all the achievements in Team Fortress 2. There is no way to create this kind of theory out of the subject's reflection on their own activities. After all, the subject might be wrong!
- sofal 16y ago
  I don't think pg's argument relies on an objective definition of bad. The subjective one works fine. After all, the subject might be wrong! "Wrong" being subjective, of course.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - msg 16y ago
    The subjective definition of bad only works if you happen to share the values. But this kind of argument does not bear examination. If we ask, "why is tech addiction bad?" or argue, "tech addiction is great because we it is a pathway to posthumanism", we immediately come to a question of this objective standard. If a subjective notion of evil is all you have, you'll start waving your hands here.
drewcrawford 16y ago
> if in advance of the behavior, you intend to partake moderately, and in the event you consistently overindulge, and after the fact you regret your excess, then something about this behavior is bad. (This is not at all intended to be a joke:) In many cultures, homosexual activity would meet this criteria. There are many social and psychological reasons for guilt to manifest itself, and I don't think that these alone form a robust definition of badness. Now I don't mean to trivialize those who really struggle with, say, reading HN or Reddit or playing WoW. But I do think that a lot of the talk about internet "addiction" is really a misunderstood type of burnout. I consider it totally normal to "waste" 1-3 hours each day, and I have no impulse to blame Reddit. If it wasn't the internet, it would be something else. There's simply a finite amount of time that I can spend being productive. And it comes in waves. Sometimes, coming off a particularly grueling schedule, I can't get anything done for a week or more. Is this bad? I think it's pretty normal. It's a result of pushing myself past my production limit, building up a "productive" debt. I just need some time to recharge. There's even some research to back up this view. See Galliot et al: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17279852 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17279852 So again, not to trivialize long-term WoW players' addiction, but I am regularly unproductive for a few hours a day, at times for a week or more, and feel no guilt or regret. Is this addiction? Is this bad? Maybe I'm just in denial, but I sort of doubt it.
- gwern 16y ago
  > (This is not at all intended to be a joke:) In many cultures, homosexual activity would meet this criteria. There are many social and psychological reasons for guilt to manifest itself, and I don't think that these alone form a robust definition of badness. Huh? How does that work? Do homosexuals in such homophobic cultures... I dunno, intend to go to the local gay spot for just a blow job and wind up barebacking?
- lincolnq 16y ago
  If I wasted 1-3 hours each day I would be okay. Some days I waste far less than this and feel good. But some days, I have lots of stuff to do, and I accidentally spend like 5 or 6 hours on HN and then I feel really shitty afterwards. _That_ is why we are trying to fix this problem. Maybe this doesn't happen to you, and that's good. But it does happen to me sometimes.

msg 16y ago

You're assuming that dissatisfaction and regret mean the activity was bad. What if you overindulge in learning and regret knowing all kinds of details about Lisp? Some outside observers don't consider your time wasted, quite the contrary. But by your measurement, regretting knowing Lisp would mean that knowing Lisp is bad. My point is that you can always pick opposing activities that people will feel are time wasted or well-spent. But why? Because you have some implicit notion of ultimate value that helps you weigh time spent on one or the other. In the absence of such a theory of good and evil you might as well criticize pg for becoming addicted to hiking or addicted to insightful thinking. Cool for him, but he's wasting his life if he doesn't have all the achievements in Team Fortress 2. There is no way to create this kind of theory out of the subject's reflection on their own activities. After all, the subject might be wrong!

sofal 16y ago
I don't think pg's argument relies on an objective definition of bad. The subjective one works fine. After all, the subject might be wrong! "Wrong" being subjective, of course.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- msg 16y ago
  The subjective definition of bad only works if you happen to share the values. But this kind of argument does not bear examination. If we ask, "why is tech addiction bad?" or argue, "tech addiction is great because we it is a pathway to posthumanism", we immediately come to a question of this objective standard. If a subjective notion of evil is all you have, you'll start waving your hands here.

drewcrawford 16y ago

> if in advance of the behavior, you intend to partake moderately, and in the event you consistently overindulge, and after the fact you regret your excess, then something about this behavior is bad. (This is not at all intended to be a joke:) In many cultures, homosexual activity would meet this criteria. There are many social and psychological reasons for guilt to manifest itself, and I don't think that these alone form a robust definition of badness. Now I don't mean to trivialize those who really struggle with, say, reading HN or Reddit or playing WoW. But I do think that a lot of the talk about internet "addiction" is really a misunderstood type of burnout. I consider it totally normal to "waste" 1-3 hours each day, and I have no impulse to blame Reddit. If it wasn't the internet, it would be something else. There's simply a finite amount of time that I can spend being productive. And it comes in waves. Sometimes, coming off a particularly grueling schedule, I can't get anything done for a week or more. Is this bad? I think it's pretty normal. It's a result of pushing myself past my production limit, building up a "productive" debt. I just need some time to recharge. There's even some research to back up this view. See Galliot et al: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17279852 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17279852 So again, not to trivialize long-term WoW players' addiction, but I am regularly unproductive for a few hours a day, at times for a week or more, and feel no guilt or regret. Is this addiction? Is this bad? Maybe I'm just in denial, but I sort of doubt it.

gwern 16y ago
> (This is not at all intended to be a joke:) In many cultures, homosexual activity would meet this criteria. There are many social and psychological reasons for guilt to manifest itself, and I don't think that these alone form a robust definition of badness. Huh? How does that work? Do homosexuals in such homophobic cultures... I dunno, intend to go to the local gay spot for just a blow job and wind up barebacking?
lincolnq 16y ago
If I wasted 1-3 hours each day I would be okay. Some days I waste far less than this and feel good. But some days, I have lots of stuff to do, and I accidentally spend like 5 or 6 hours on HN and then I feel really shitty afterwards. _That_ is why we are trying to fix this problem. Maybe this doesn't happen to you, and that's good. But it does happen to me sometimes.