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I think it's helpful to look at it in terms of control vs. freedom. Communism means more state control of people, capitalism means less. In these terms, what
by explainplease 9y ago
I think it's helpful to look at it in terms of control vs. freedom. Communism means more state control of people, capitalism means less.
In these terms, what if capitalism is simply the natural outcome of x amount of freedom? Therefore, shifting away from capitalism means shifting toward either anarchy or communism (even if both of those options are far away in absolute distances).
This makes it hard to discuss things calmly and rationally, of course: Few people want actual anarchy, and few people want actual communism, but a move in either direction is a move toward one of them, even if it's not intended to go all the way. And if you do move one way or the other, some of those few people who do want to go all the way will try to capitalize (ha) on the opportunity.
Incidentally, this may be an argument for leaning more toward capitalism, i.e. toward less state control: because people as a whole will never agree on a single course of action, and because there will always be those among us who want to achieve more power and wealth for themselves at others' expense, leaning toward less state control reduces the potential damage and power/wealth accumulation that "rogue" actors can achieve.
Or, to put that another way, it reveals an inherent weakness of leaning toward more state control: that power corrupts, and humans desire power, therefore using the force of law to concentrate power in the hands of fewer people (ultimately backed by the use of force, as all government power is) results in more corruption, and therefore results in more suffering for those not in power. Capitalism certainly causes suffering as well, as the robber barons demonstrated many years ago, but at least that suffering is not enforced by the state--it merely arises opportunistically, and each instance is temporary and localized, not permanent and universal.
Of course, globalism greatly increases the scale of that localization, which demonstrates that theories about economics, government, etc. must be revised and kept current with the times. Our governments and economies are largely built upon ideas whose foundations were laid centuries ago, before any of today's technologies could have even been conceived of. For example, the American Founders could not have foreseen the kinds of rapidly changing, global corporations that exist today, and so we should expect their ideas to have some vulnerabilities which may be exploited by newer technology (to think in infosec terms).
Anyway, if you are wanting to move away from capitalism and not toward anarchy, you necessarily are moving toward less freedom and more state control. I think the important point to note is that state control of economic means cannot be isolated from other facets of life. It necessarily influences all other parts of life, for the economy is that from which human sustenance flows.
To look at it another way, capitalism allows for greed, which has very negative effects--but it also accounts for greed, which is part of human nature, and which motivates. Specifically, it accounts for it by allowing everyone to be motivated by it. In contrast, giving the state more control concentrates the greed in fewer people, by law. And I think it's better to allow the evil of greed to be evenly distributed (which does not guarantee the even distribution of wealth, health, or happiness, but allows it to be pursued), than to use the force of law to concentrate it in fewer people, expecting them to rein it in for the sake of the greater good, because that fails to account for human nature--it's essentially a GIGO system.
Food for thought. :)
- brbrodude 9y agoIt's a fallacious distinction. That's not what each one means.
- explainplease 9y agoBy "means" I mean "necessarily results in," not "is defined as." If after my clarifying that you still disagree, please explain, otherwise what's the point of saying so?
- ddnb 9y agoIt still is not correct >Communism means more state control of people, capitalism means less. In comparison to what? Eachother? Because western-europe has more control than the US, china has more control than western-europe (and let's not pretend china isn't capitalist). These are economic systems and are seperate from political systems.
- explainplease 9y ago> In comparison to what? Eachother? Yes, that is the point I tried to make with all those paragraphs. > These are economic systems and are seperate from political systems. I directly addressed this in the penultimate full paragraph. > and let's not pretend china isn't capitalist It depends on how you define "capitalist." Some industries in China are state-controlled--is that capitalist? Is "capitalist" 0% state control, or < 100% state control? How does China's capitalism compare with capitalism in the rest of the world? > It still is not correct I realize that you're not the first person I replied to, nor the last, but I wish you would say why you think I'm wrong, because otherwise what's the point of saying so?
- ddnb 9y ago> I realize that you're not the first person I replied to, nor the last, but I wish you would say why you think I'm wrong, because otherwise what's the point of saying so? The quote I used to have an example of what I think was not correct. The problem is your reasoning is based on these 'wisdoms' that aren't actually real facts or which are simply misunderstood, for example: > toward either anarchy or communism Communists and anarchists have the same end goal, these two 'groupings' are one and the same in the end. > which is part of human nature Is there such a thing as a fixed human nature? Our strength is that we adapt. >It depends on how you define "capitalist." Some industries in China are state-controlled--is that capitalist? Is "capitalist" 0% state control, or < 100% state control? There is no state in communism so that would not be a good measure. Then you seem to imply that communism is full on state control while the opposite is true and communism (and anarchism) stands for a stateless and classless society. A country that is full authoritarian is just that, authoritarian, regardless of what mix of state-ownership of the economy is involved. Your whole post is more of an argument against authoritarianism than anything else in my opinion.