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Somewhat orthogonal: In SF, the jail will only accept bail from registered bail bondsmen. They will not accept bail money from the arrestee, friends of the arr

Somewhat orthogonal: In SF, the jail will only accept bail from registered bail bondsmen. They will not accept bail money from the arrestee, friends of the arrestee, or family. The average rate for a bail bondsman is 10%. A common practice that a vindictive police force will use is tacking on charges that they know will not stick in order to push the bail higher (eg Felony Conspiracy to Commit a Crime can be tacked on to any crime involving more than one person regardless of its nature and will set bail at $18k minimum). My neighbor is a criminal defense attorney and I asked her about this; she said that it is common knowledge that the SF DA, police, and bondsmen are all scratching each others' backs. An initial court date can take a few days to a week of waiting in jail, which means missing work. An innocent person -- or a person guilty of a victim-less crime -- of little means will likely lose their job as the result of one arrest if they cannot afford bail. The other practice that is commonplace in SF and California is confiscating a phone as evidence even if there is no reason to believe the phone will have evidence. Even if a person is wrongfully arrested and the charges are dismissed, property return is only done if the District Attorney elects to cooperate. If the DA does not voluntarily request the police return your property, then you need to file a motion to obtain a hearing. The going rate is $500+ to have an attorney do this. Most people simply do not get their phones back because the time and monetary cost are too high. If you are living in an expensive city on a tight budget, this is a significant loss.

ux-app 9y ago
why are these people acting like such pricks? What do they have to gain?
- jopsen 9y ago
  Tough on crime.. Aren't most of these politically elected or appointed? In many other countries the police chief, DA and judges are independent or their appointment has many levels of indirection.
- bryanrasmussen 9y ago
  It sounds like money, as well as probably being able to screw someone over they don't like.
  - ux-app 9y ago
    is such widespread, systemic corruption an issue in the US? As a far away observer (AUS), the US system does not seem so pervasively corrupt.
    - lovich 9y ago
      There's very little to no overtime bribing, it's rare enough to make the news. Kickbacks though, or simply fucking over someone you don't like, runs rampant.
      - hnzix 9y ago
        Confiscation of property and cash seems to be a big problem.
        lovich 9y ago
        https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-took-more-stuff-from-people-than-burglars-did-last-year/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-... Worse than our actual thieves. I am on the paranoid side and most Americans don't think this way as far as I know, but I feel safer walking through a bad neighborhood with a pile of cash than going by a cop. I'll most likely get mugged in the bad neighborhood but the cops will take the money and put me in jail
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
    - nilved 9y ago
      You're not observing very closely then. Or like, at all.
- brendanw 9y ago
  The police can sell property for funding. A convoluted process for recovering property increases demand for law services, so even though defense attorneys might be against the process ethically, they still stand to gain from the process financially. The DA wants to have as many power levers as possible. The courts collect fees to file a motion.
jopsen 9y ago
Curious, what are your options to insure yourself against these things? Given the predatory nature of the US legal system, it seems like a reasonable thing to do.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- brendanw 9y ago
  Some employers offer such a thing as group legal insurance, but that protects a privileged few and is more like a band-aid. I think most people are against this sort of corruption when the learn of it. Reform should be a realistic goal. I shared what I know with the hope that greater awareness will lead to more successful reform efforts -- whether that be by political candidate, proposition, or innovation. I know property confiscation is on the ACLU's radar (https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police-practices/asset-forfeiture-abuse https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-po...). I have not had time to do more research -- it is in my queue -- but I have wondered if there is a public data source for archived petitions and motions. Putting a nice frontend onto a search engine for property return motions by location could enable a strong-willed person to try and pursue property return on their own.
  - jopsen 9y ago
    > Reform should be a realistic goal. Sure, the same goes for a long list of other issues in the US. And it's not as if this is a new theme, or something people have just discovered now. I know that legal insurance against civil cases is wide spread in other countries.
marcoperaza 9y ago
Bail bondsman play an important role too. They're on the hook for the money, so they make sure the guy shows up to court and doesn't become a fugitive. And if he does flee, they go find him. Otherwise, the police and therefore taxpayers would have to do all these things themselves. I'm not saying this is the right system, I don't know, but if you're going to criticize it, you should at least acknowledge the reasonable arguments for it.
- brendanw 9y ago
  Losing a lot of money if you post your own bail is another big incentive to show up for court, but unlike most counties in the country, San Francisco does not allow an individual or their friends, family, or attorney to pay the bail. While there is a lot of criticism against the United States bail bonds industry, I am criticizing the specific corruption in San Francisco. For most crimes, it does not make sense to skip town or skip a court date. If the person gets pulled over for speeding, then he has new fines and potentially new charges. If you pay $100k bail out of your own pocket for a DUI, you are not going to flee the country to avoid court. There is no need for a bondsman. Hell, there is no need for a $100k bond. The $100k bond is the result of lobbying by the insurance industry that backs bail bondsman: "Indeed. Before ABC began lobbying, in 1990, commercial bail accounted for just 23 percent of pretrial releases, while release on recognizance accounted for 40 percent. Today, only 23 percent of those let go before trial are released on recognizance, while 49 percent must purchase commercial bail. Since 1990, average bail amounts have almost tripled for felony cases. Between 2004 and 2012, revenues of the ABC companies whose income comes almost entirely from bail increased 21 percent." (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/06/bail-bond-prison-industry/ http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/06/bail-bond-prison...) The bigger savings to the taxpayer would be to reduce aggressive sentences and over-reaching laws. The prisoner per capita rate in the United States is the second highest in the world and 3x that of the countries with the highest rates in Europe (http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison_population_rate?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison_popula...).

ux-app 9y ago

why are these people acting like such pricks? What do they have to gain?

jopsen 9y ago
Tough on crime.. Aren't most of these politically elected or appointed? In many other countries the police chief, DA and judges are independent or their appointment has many levels of indirection.
bryanrasmussen 9y ago
It sounds like money, as well as probably being able to screw someone over they don't like.
- ux-app 9y ago
  is such widespread, systemic corruption an issue in the US? As a far away observer (AUS), the US system does not seem so pervasively corrupt.
  - lovich 9y ago
    There's very little to no overtime bribing, it's rare enough to make the news. Kickbacks though, or simply fucking over someone you don't like, runs rampant.
    - hnzix 9y ago
      Confiscation of property and cash seems to be a big problem.
      - lovich 9y ago
        https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-took-more-stuff-from-people-than-burglars-did-last-year/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-... Worse than our actual thieves. I am on the paranoid side and most Americans don't think this way as far as I know, but I feel safer walking through a bad neighborhood with a pile of cash than going by a cop. I'll most likely get mugged in the bad neighborhood but the cops will take the money and put me in jail
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
  - nilved 9y ago
    You're not observing very closely then. Or like, at all.
brendanw 9y ago
The police can sell property for funding. A convoluted process for recovering property increases demand for law services, so even though defense attorneys might be against the process ethically, they still stand to gain from the process financially. The DA wants to have as many power levers as possible. The courts collect fees to file a motion.

jopsen 9y ago

Curious, what are your options to insure yourself against these things? Given the predatory nature of the US legal system, it seems like a reasonable thing to do.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
brendanw 9y ago
Some employers offer such a thing as group legal insurance, but that protects a privileged few and is more like a band-aid. I think most people are against this sort of corruption when the learn of it. Reform should be a realistic goal. I shared what I know with the hope that greater awareness will lead to more successful reform efforts -- whether that be by political candidate, proposition, or innovation. I know property confiscation is on the ACLU's radar (https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police-practices/asset-forfeiture-abuse https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-po...). I have not had time to do more research -- it is in my queue -- but I have wondered if there is a public data source for archived petitions and motions. Putting a nice frontend onto a search engine for property return motions by location could enable a strong-willed person to try and pursue property return on their own.
- jopsen 9y ago
  > Reform should be a realistic goal. Sure, the same goes for a long list of other issues in the US. And it's not as if this is a new theme, or something people have just discovered now. I know that legal insurance against civil cases is wide spread in other countries.

marcoperaza 9y ago

Bail bondsman play an important role too. They're on the hook for the money, so they make sure the guy shows up to court and doesn't become a fugitive. And if he does flee, they go find him. Otherwise, the police and therefore taxpayers would have to do all these things themselves. I'm not saying this is the right system, I don't know, but if you're going to criticize it, you should at least acknowledge the reasonable arguments for it.

brendanw 9y ago
Losing a lot of money if you post your own bail is another big incentive to show up for court, but unlike most counties in the country, San Francisco does not allow an individual or their friends, family, or attorney to pay the bail. While there is a lot of criticism against the United States bail bonds industry, I am criticizing the specific corruption in San Francisco. For most crimes, it does not make sense to skip town or skip a court date. If the person gets pulled over for speeding, then he has new fines and potentially new charges. If you pay $100k bail out of your own pocket for a DUI, you are not going to flee the country to avoid court. There is no need for a bondsman. Hell, there is no need for a $100k bond. The $100k bond is the result of lobbying by the insurance industry that backs bail bondsman: "Indeed. Before ABC began lobbying, in 1990, commercial bail accounted for just 23 percent of pretrial releases, while release on recognizance accounted for 40 percent. Today, only 23 percent of those let go before trial are released on recognizance, while 49 percent must purchase commercial bail. Since 1990, average bail amounts have almost tripled for felony cases. Between 2004 and 2012, revenues of the ABC companies whose income comes almost entirely from bail increased 21 percent." (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/06/bail-bond-prison-industry/ http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/06/bail-bond-prison...) The bigger savings to the taxpayer would be to reduce aggressive sentences and over-reaching laws. The prisoner per capita rate in the United States is the second highest in the world and 3x that of the countries with the highest rates in Europe (http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison_population_rate?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison_popula...).