6 ms·

As other people have mentioned, this is only strange because of our bizarre popular notions of crime and punishment in America. First of all, we love partition

As other people have mentioned, this is only strange because of our bizarre popular notions of crime and punishment in America. First of all, we love partitioning people into good and evil sets. If we can only root out and imprison the evil people (and, btw, give all the good guys guns), there would be negligible crime. Secondly, we believe punishment fulfills justice. Despite well documented issues in applying the death penalty equitably, or even solely to guilty people, we maintain that heinous crimes must be met with human sacrifice. And to be honest, I think human sacrifice is literally what we believe in. When something goes wrong, we require someone to feel pain. The more permanent that pain, the better. This goes beyond crime. Look how sports players are immortalized for their blunders. Look at the mob justice of the Internet. Look at how we crack down on the vulnerable when the middle class struggles.

microcolonel 9y ago
I think you're extrapolating a lot: this person is the exception, not the rule.
- mulmen 9y ago
  I don't see the extrapolation, can you explain that in more detail?
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    He's saying that per the OP: As other people have mentioned, this is only strange because of our bizarre popular notions of crime and punishment in America. is extrapolating. This isn't weird because of notions of justice (cue soapbox), it's weird because for anyone to become a Georgetown law professor is incredible, for a convicted felon to do it is difficult to believe, it's missing the forest for the trees.
    - mulmen 9y ago
      I don't read the comment that way. If we consider prison terms to be the debt to society when they are complete they should be irrelevant. This means a person's ability to become a Georgetown law professor should not change based on their criminal record. This doesn't imply that all prisoners should become Georgetown law professors.
      - microcolonel 9y ago
        Aside from poorly-drafted laws, committing a felony is a good signal to the rest of society, most of whom well never be convicted of a felony, that you are different in a way that makes you more likely to commit a felony worth charging. Your debts are not cleared when you've served your time, you are still a convicted felon even after you're out.
        mulmen 9y ago
        If the debt is not cleared why let the person out at all? Why is a felony conviction a good signal for anything? We know convictions are disproportionate based on race and economic status. The executives at Equifax did a lot more damage to the American public than most drug offenders and yet they will never serve a day of time for their actions. You can't separate poorly drafted laws from felony convictions because the conviction itself carries the consequence. If the laws are poorly drafted the consequences are unfair.
        KGIII 9y ago
        They let them out because they believe they are no longer a threat. That's different than what people call their debt, in that it is just a portion of the total debt. If not obvious, I don't agree with that sentiment. I think prisons should be about reform more than debt or punishment. Very few people pose a real risk and a significant number of them could be reformed, if studies are to be believed.
        mulmen 9y ago
        Exactly. The system is a contradiction. The debt cannot be repaid because we offer no way to move beyond it.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
PhisherPrice 9y ago
Humans are naturally vindictive. When someone harms or insults us, we want to retaliate and cause harm in return. Even if we choose not to do so, we still have the feeling. That kind of justice is a manifestation of that feeling.
avn2109 9y ago
>> "First of all, we love partitioning people into good and evil sets. If we can only root out and imprison the evil people..." Wiser men than us thought the same thing [0]: "If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn [0] https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/13750-if-only-it-were-all-so-simple-if-only-there https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/13750-if-only-it-were-all-s...
- mrestko 9y ago
  That's a great quote I've never read before.
rayiner 9y ago
I agree we impose unfair lifetime constraints on former felons, but even without those this would be a remarkable turnaround. Almost everyone who clerked with him on the DC Circuit, or authored briefs the same term in the Supreme Court, or started as a professor at a top law school, carefully pursued a track that often started in high school. This guy got his degree while in prison for a “real crime” (armed robbery).
throwaway613834 9y ago
> And to be honest, I think human sacrifice is literally what we believe in. When something goes wrong, we require someone to feel pain. The more permanent that pain, the better. This goes beyond crime. I don't think it's about human sacrifice. Rather, I think it's about imposing enough of a punishment to deter other people from committing the crime. Presumably people committed the crime knowingly, being aware of the fact that the punishment may go in such a direction.
- warent 9y ago
  Many people who feel wronged end up growing a bloodlust and indulge in schadenfreude. This is probably due to some corruption of our animal nature. These feelings are of course hard to come to terms with, so it's hidden under the guise of "deterring other people" which is much more palatable
- smnrchrds 9y ago
  There was this well-publicized case in Canada. A man was beheaded and partially cannibalized in a Greyhound bus [1]. The killer was determined to be not criminally responsible. It was proven that he was suffering from severe mental health issues and did not understand what he was doing. He was sent to a high security mental health facility. There was no death penalty in Canada, so everyone was content for as long as he was behind bars in the facility. But when he was deemed treated in 2015 and scheduled for discharge, people on the internet lost it. They didn't care that he did not knowingly do anything wrong. They said he brutally killed someone and for that he should be punished. Some said they wouldn't mind if "an accident happened to him." Others wanted him behind bars for the rest of his life. Everyone blamed the government and the justice system for bring too soft and naive. It was sad to read the discussions. After seeing that, I have to agree with the commenter you are replying to rather than you. People want an eye for an eye. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Tim_McLean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Tim_McLean
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    That's hugely unfair to those people. He cut off someone's head. To get out after seven years for beheading someone is a real luxury, you can hardly be shocked that people would find that problematic, regardless of his mental situation.
narag 9y ago
As other people have mentioned, this is only strange because of our bizarre popular notions of crime and punishment in America. I believe it's more of a Calvinism thing. I mean predestination as stronger than free will. If that person is a criminal, it's shocking that he will rehab and live a productive life later. In catholic countries this wouldn't be seen as strange.
- m1n1 9y ago
  According to Calvinism, all are sinners who deserve eternal damnation and some are chosen to be given a new life and repent. So his case is not strange from a Calvinist point of view at all. Edit: Neither (in Calvinism) can one say "he was predestined to be a criminal". The blame for sin lies at the feet of the sinner. Sin is the sinner's choice. Grace, to give someone the heart to repent, is God's choice.
  - narag 9y ago
    What you wrote can be rephrased to fit in my previous comment just the same. Or the other way around :)
- posterboy 9y ago
  as a protestant by cultural heritage I can't help but snark at this comment in light of the bail bonds discussion upthreat :)
  - narag 9y ago
    That's... interesting. I have no idea what you mean, but it's intriguing anyway :) BTW, I'm not really interested in Theology or in religion for that matter. Actually it seems that protestant countries are usually richer, so I would happyly admit it's a better solution for people that can't resist being Christians. Anyway, don't disregard what your culture looks like from outside. If there's something you can't really see is the air you breath.
mercer 9y ago
> And to be honest, I think human sacrifice is literally what we believe in. When something goes wrong, we require someone to feel pain. The more permanent that pain, the better. This goes beyond crime. Look how sports players are immortalized for their blunders. Look at the mob justice of the Internet. Look at how we crack down on the vulnerable when the middle class struggles. Reminds me of René Girard[1]. I'm not sure exactly how I feel about him, but I found his thoughts quite interesting. [1]:http://www.iep.utm.edu/girard/ http://www.iep.utm.edu/girard/

microcolonel 9y ago

I think you're extrapolating a lot: this person is the exception, not the rule.

mulmen 9y ago
I don't see the extrapolation, can you explain that in more detail?
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  He's saying that per the OP: As other people have mentioned, this is only strange because of our bizarre popular notions of crime and punishment in America. is extrapolating. This isn't weird because of notions of justice (cue soapbox), it's weird because for anyone to become a Georgetown law professor is incredible, for a convicted felon to do it is difficult to believe, it's missing the forest for the trees.
  - mulmen 9y ago
    I don't read the comment that way. If we consider prison terms to be the debt to society when they are complete they should be irrelevant. This means a person's ability to become a Georgetown law professor should not change based on their criminal record. This doesn't imply that all prisoners should become Georgetown law professors.
    - microcolonel 9y ago
      Aside from poorly-drafted laws, committing a felony is a good signal to the rest of society, most of whom well never be convicted of a felony, that you are different in a way that makes you more likely to commit a felony worth charging. Your debts are not cleared when you've served your time, you are still a convicted felon even after you're out.
      - mulmen 9y ago
        If the debt is not cleared why let the person out at all? Why is a felony conviction a good signal for anything? We know convictions are disproportionate based on race and economic status. The executives at Equifax did a lot more damage to the American public than most drug offenders and yet they will never serve a day of time for their actions. You can't separate poorly drafted laws from felony convictions because the conviction itself carries the consequence. If the laws are poorly drafted the consequences are unfair.
        KGIII 9y ago
        They let them out because they believe they are no longer a threat. That's different than what people call their debt, in that it is just a portion of the total debt. If not obvious, I don't agree with that sentiment. I think prisons should be about reform more than debt or punishment. Very few people pose a real risk and a significant number of them could be reformed, if studies are to be believed.
        mulmen 9y ago
        Exactly. The system is a contradiction. The debt cannot be repaid because we offer no way to move beyond it.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

PhisherPrice 9y ago

Humans are naturally vindictive. When someone harms or insults us, we want to retaliate and cause harm in return. Even if we choose not to do so, we still have the feeling. That kind of justice is a manifestation of that feeling.

avn2109 9y ago

>> "First of all, we love partitioning people into good and evil sets. If we can only root out and imprison the evil people..." Wiser men than us thought the same thing [0]: "If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn [0] https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/13750-if-only-it-were-all-so-simple-if-only-there https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/13750-if-only-it-were-all-s...

mrestko 9y ago
That's a great quote I've never read before.

rayiner 9y ago

I agree we impose unfair lifetime constraints on former felons, but even without those this would be a remarkable turnaround. Almost everyone who clerked with him on the DC Circuit, or authored briefs the same term in the Supreme Court, or started as a professor at a top law school, carefully pursued a track that often started in high school. This guy got his degree while in prison for a “real crime” (armed robbery).

throwaway613834 9y ago

> And to be honest, I think human sacrifice is literally what we believe in. When something goes wrong, we require someone to feel pain. The more permanent that pain, the better. This goes beyond crime. I don't think it's about human sacrifice. Rather, I think it's about imposing enough of a punishment to deter other people from committing the crime. Presumably people committed the crime knowingly, being aware of the fact that the punishment may go in such a direction.

warent 9y ago
Many people who feel wronged end up growing a bloodlust and indulge in schadenfreude. This is probably due to some corruption of our animal nature. These feelings are of course hard to come to terms with, so it's hidden under the guise of "deterring other people" which is much more palatable
smnrchrds 9y ago
There was this well-publicized case in Canada. A man was beheaded and partially cannibalized in a Greyhound bus [1]. The killer was determined to be not criminally responsible. It was proven that he was suffering from severe mental health issues and did not understand what he was doing. He was sent to a high security mental health facility. There was no death penalty in Canada, so everyone was content for as long as he was behind bars in the facility. But when he was deemed treated in 2015 and scheduled for discharge, people on the internet lost it. They didn't care that he did not knowingly do anything wrong. They said he brutally killed someone and for that he should be punished. Some said they wouldn't mind if "an accident happened to him." Others wanted him behind bars for the rest of his life. Everyone blamed the government and the justice system for bring too soft and naive. It was sad to read the discussions. After seeing that, I have to agree with the commenter you are replying to rather than you. People want an eye for an eye. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Tim_McLean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Tim_McLean
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  That's hugely unfair to those people. He cut off someone's head. To get out after seven years for beheading someone is a real luxury, you can hardly be shocked that people would find that problematic, regardless of his mental situation.

narag 9y ago

As other people have mentioned, this is only strange because of our bizarre popular notions of crime and punishment in America. I believe it's more of a Calvinism thing. I mean predestination as stronger than free will. If that person is a criminal, it's shocking that he will rehab and live a productive life later. In catholic countries this wouldn't be seen as strange.

m1n1 9y ago
According to Calvinism, all are sinners who deserve eternal damnation and some are chosen to be given a new life and repent. So his case is not strange from a Calvinist point of view at all. Edit: Neither (in Calvinism) can one say "he was predestined to be a criminal". The blame for sin lies at the feet of the sinner. Sin is the sinner's choice. Grace, to give someone the heart to repent, is God's choice.
- narag 9y ago
  What you wrote can be rephrased to fit in my previous comment just the same. Or the other way around :)
posterboy 9y ago
as a protestant by cultural heritage I can't help but snark at this comment in light of the bail bonds discussion upthreat :)
- narag 9y ago
  That's... interesting. I have no idea what you mean, but it's intriguing anyway :) BTW, I'm not really interested in Theology or in religion for that matter. Actually it seems that protestant countries are usually richer, so I would happyly admit it's a better solution for people that can't resist being Christians. Anyway, don't disregard what your culture looks like from outside. If there's something you can't really see is the air you breath.

mercer 9y ago

> And to be honest, I think human sacrifice is literally what we believe in. When something goes wrong, we require someone to feel pain. The more permanent that pain, the better. This goes beyond crime. Look how sports players are immortalized for their blunders. Look at the mob justice of the Internet. Look at how we crack down on the vulnerable when the middle class struggles. Reminds me of René Girard[1]. I'm not sure exactly how I feel about him, but I found his thoughts quite interesting. [1]:http://www.iep.utm.edu/girard/ http://www.iep.utm.edu/girard/