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It's extremely interesting looking at the Program For International Student Assessment (PISA) data for something like America compared to China. [1] Scroll down

It's extremely interesting looking at the Program For International Student Assessment (PISA) data for something like America compared to China. [1] Scroll down a bit on that page to add countries for comparison, including China. China is pulling far ahead of us in everything in terms of educational achievement. If China's 'trick' was little more than knocking off US tech and having cheap labor then every country in the world would be on their way to becoming an industrialized superpower. Their progress is even more phenomenal when you consider their recent history. Less than 60 years ago Chinese were literally starving to death by the tens of millions as the country's government decided to try out socialism. And their technological acceleration did not really begin in earnest until the late 80s. I think the fable of the tortoise and the hare if not for the fact that we can see that tortoise is certainly not exactly inching along anymore, yet we continue to mock it? [1] - https://www.compareyourcountry.org/pisa/country/USA?lg=en https://www.compareyourcountry.org/pisa/country/USA?lg=en

blackbagboys 9y ago
China's PISA data is notoriously cherry-picked.
- dilemma 9y ago
  Source
  - indubitable 9y ago
    He's likely is referencing the fact that back in 2012 the Chinese data was just from Shanghai. This was not a secret -- it was also listed as just being from Shanghai. And they took first or near first in literally everything. Shanghai, of course, is a city (a rather large one at a population of 24 million) but not China as a whole. There was extensive media coverage calling China's results completely fake and unrepresentative. The most recent data from 2015 (what I referenced) tested China as a whole. Their rankings declined, yet they remain far ahead of the US in everything except reading where we are a tiny sliver ahead of them. This received minimal media coverage. This is a general issue when media. When the media emphasizes one issue strongly, only to give minimal coverage to the revelation that they were wrong (the implication of the coverage was that China would not be a world leader if the data were 'real') - it leads to a misinformed populace.
germinalphrase 9y ago
The general criticism I've heard (not about China specifically) is that the US is at a significance disadvantage by virtue of mainstreaming our special education and ELL students (I.e. all students are tested in US). This is, apparently, less true in other countries so we're not making a true apples-to-apples comparison.
kolbe 9y ago
There's no mocking. When you have a docile and powerless population combined with an intelligent central planning system, it's a no brainier that it would succeed--especially within the realm of exploitation of its own people. It's just not obvious that the next level can be reached. The US is open to people being different and intellectual exploration. These are important qualities for innovation. China is draconian in its approach to making people try to become "the best" on some centrally planned linear scale. That's great for resolving the hardest math problems that have already been solved, but it's not great for thinking about problems and creating products that are outside the domain of current human knowledge.
- indubitable 9y ago
  What exactly do you mean by "people being different and intellectual exploration" being the most important qualities for innovation? Based on what? How does this contrast against the times of some of the most famous American inventors? Ask people to name famous American inventors and names like Ford, Franklin, Bell, and Edison will predominate. And how does this contrast against China?
  - kolbe 9y ago
    Some of the people you mentioned are just the beneficiaries of other people's creative genius. And that's an important distinction, since, at a country level, it doesn't matter who benefits from a breakthrough, just that the breakthrough happened somewhere. Also, creativity is a pretty hard thing to quantify. So, I'm not sure how we'd create a data set on how creativity correlates to innovation. How about I just quote the single person whose insights have vaulted technology farther than any other man in modern history: Albert Einstein (granted, not american). "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination." "I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious." "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." "Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere." How does this contrast with China? I'm interpolating some here, but if all information that citizens receive through the internet must be approved of by the government, I can't help but think the population will have a narrow/brainwashed perspective of the world and their place in it.

blackbagboys 9y ago

China's PISA data is notoriously cherry-picked.

dilemma 9y ago
Source
- indubitable 9y ago
  He's likely is referencing the fact that back in 2012 the Chinese data was just from Shanghai. This was not a secret -- it was also listed as just being from Shanghai. And they took first or near first in literally everything. Shanghai, of course, is a city (a rather large one at a population of 24 million) but not China as a whole. There was extensive media coverage calling China's results completely fake and unrepresentative. The most recent data from 2015 (what I referenced) tested China as a whole. Their rankings declined, yet they remain far ahead of the US in everything except reading where we are a tiny sliver ahead of them. This received minimal media coverage. This is a general issue when media. When the media emphasizes one issue strongly, only to give minimal coverage to the revelation that they were wrong (the implication of the coverage was that China would not be a world leader if the data were 'real') - it leads to a misinformed populace.

germinalphrase 9y ago

The general criticism I've heard (not about China specifically) is that the US is at a significance disadvantage by virtue of mainstreaming our special education and ELL students (I.e. all students are tested in US). This is, apparently, less true in other countries so we're not making a true apples-to-apples comparison.

kolbe 9y ago

There's no mocking. When you have a docile and powerless population combined with an intelligent central planning system, it's a no brainier that it would succeed--especially within the realm of exploitation of its own people. It's just not obvious that the next level can be reached. The US is open to people being different and intellectual exploration. These are important qualities for innovation. China is draconian in its approach to making people try to become "the best" on some centrally planned linear scale. That's great for resolving the hardest math problems that have already been solved, but it's not great for thinking about problems and creating products that are outside the domain of current human knowledge.

indubitable 9y ago
What exactly do you mean by "people being different and intellectual exploration" being the most important qualities for innovation? Based on what? How does this contrast against the times of some of the most famous American inventors? Ask people to name famous American inventors and names like Ford, Franklin, Bell, and Edison will predominate. And how does this contrast against China?
- kolbe 9y ago
  Some of the people you mentioned are just the beneficiaries of other people's creative genius. And that's an important distinction, since, at a country level, it doesn't matter who benefits from a breakthrough, just that the breakthrough happened somewhere. Also, creativity is a pretty hard thing to quantify. So, I'm not sure how we'd create a data set on how creativity correlates to innovation. How about I just quote the single person whose insights have vaulted technology farther than any other man in modern history: Albert Einstein (granted, not american). "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination." "I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious." "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." "Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere." How does this contrast with China? I'm interpolating some here, but if all information that citizens receive through the internet must be approved of by the government, I can't help but think the population will have a narrow/brainwashed perspective of the world and their place in it.