5 ms·

This post is being downvoted and I wish it wasn't, because it's a great example of the exact issue at hand. You might say that it is overly emotional, or too r

by untog 9y ago

This post is being downvoted and I wish it wasn't, because it's a great example of the exact issue at hand. You might say that it is overly emotional, or too reactionary, or that the tone isn't appropriate, but think - really think! - what it would be like to wake up one morning to the unexpected shock that a President has been elected on the very possible platform of kicking you out of the country and ruining the life you built for yourself. "No politics" is a fine ideal to aim for, but you can't expect anyone to leave stress like that at the door when they turn up to work.

vkou 9y ago
Exactly. I'll happily stop worrying about politics when politics stops worrying about me. Unsurprisingly, people who feel like Trump is the solution to their 'country being taken away from them' are telling the rest of us to suck it up and stuff it, and to stop bringing politics into everything. I mean, shit, if they took that advice, he never would have been elected.
miketery 9y ago
Except, that's the point - people are overly emotional. All this waking up the next morning and the world is different is such a stretch. Nothing has changed.
- untog 9y ago
  I'm going to guess you aren't in the US on a visa. "Nothing has changed" is such an absurdly wrong way of looking at the issue. Say you're stood in the street alone. That's normal. Now there's a man stood in front of you with a knife, and he's looking at you threateningly. But he hasn't stabbed you! Nothing has changed. Your body is still unpunctured, so why are you worrying? Throughout his campaign, Trump made overt threats to immigrants and the lives they live in the US. The fact that your entire future becomes incredibly uncertain within the space of 24 hours is absolutely something to get emotional about. To pretend otherwise is silly. As is the idea that turning up to the office without being overtly emotional would somehow mean you're absolutely fine. That stress is going to come out one way or another, personally I think that expressing it (yes, including crying!) is a lot better than the alternatives.
  - katastic 9y ago
    >immigrants You missed the "::cough:: illegal ::cough::" Otherwise, please cite a video/audio source of him actually saying he wants to kick out all the legal immigrants.
    - untog 9y ago
      “Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/12/07/donald-trump-calls-for-total-and-complete-shutdown-of-muslims-entering-the-united-states/?utm_term=.cc63319d5de0 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/12... Trump's threats were far from contained to illegal immigrants.
      - baumy 9y ago
        > Otherwise, please cite a video/audio source of him actually saying he wants to kick out all the legal immigrants. I am no Trump fan, but you have failed to do this. Temporarily (or indefinitely) curbing a specific subset of legal immigration is not equivalent to deporting people already in the country.
        untog 9y ago
        The OP edited their post to add that line after I replied, so I wasn't actually responding to it. > Temporarily (or indefinitely) curbing a specific subset of legal immigration is not equivalent to deporting people already in the country. Is it really that different? If a legally immigrated muslim left the country they would not be allowed back in again. Call me old fashioned, but I feel like a legal immigrant should be allowed to travel.
  - miketery 9y ago
    Actually I am in the US, on a visa - albeit I'm Canadian and have a good country to fall back on. Regardless of the president I feel vulnerable on a visa. I empathize with those on DACA or other immigrant situations; however on average I would argue reporting of the issues, the emotions, and reactions are over the top. The news cycle every two weeks is - "immigrants getting kicked out, DACA is over" - three days later "president goes back on his word w/ EO" or "congress not in sync with president; won't change legislation." (not literally, but you get the point).
- steve_musk 9y ago
  Maybe for you, but for a large portion of America it was definitely like waking up in a new world. Its easy to call people overly emotional when you aren't living in a world where the President of the United States was elected by stoking the hate and fear that a large portion of your fellow citizens have against your race/religion/culture/etc...
  - weberc2 9y ago
    I'll be the first to celebrate when Trump leaves office, but all of this "he ran on hate/etc" is at best dramatically overstated and at worst completely fraudulent. There's lots of valid criticism for Trump and his supporters; no need to make things up.
    - steve_musk 9y ago
      No one is making anything up. No, Trump does not come out and say that he hates Muslims, Blacks, etc. But you are either not paying attention or purposefully remaining ignorant if you believe that Trump does not exploit the racism and hate that a large portion of Americans have.
      - weberc2 9y ago
        Maybe I haven't been paying attention. I hear a lot of talk about Trump and supporters being white supremacists, but when I ask his accusers, they aren't able to articulate very significant evidence at all. Most such conversations end with implications that I'm a racist for lacking the astute progressive hearing required to perceive Trump's dog whistles. The irony that dog whistles are (by definition) intended to be perceptible only to actual racists is apparently lost on many progressives.
  - miketery 9y ago
    I live in the US. This is my point the sentiment is over blown.
- jasonlotito 9y ago
  > Nothing has changed. Except is has, and continues to change. These changes are affect real people, people in my family, in profoundly negative ways. That you choose to ignore others doesn't mean nothing has changed. Only that you are ignorant of what is happening.
TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
> think - really think! - what it would be like to wake up one morning to the unexpected shock that a President has been elected on the very possible platform of kicking you out of the country and ruining the life you built for yourself. Immigration is a political issue that hasn't been properly addressed in decades. H1B visas are good in theory, but companies exploit the system to import cheap foreign labor, hurting American wages and job prospects in the process. Illegal immigrants concentrate to pockets of the country, displacing American workers and lowering wages for those who have been hurt the most by globalization. Should these political issues be ignored just to avoid hurt feelings? I don't think they should.
- untog 9y ago
  I don't think anyone is going to dispute the argument you've laid out there, but if you were to do as I suggested and put yourself in the position where your livelihood, home and life are on the line, would you really sit back and think "well, immigration is a political issue that hasn't been properly addressed in decades. H1B visas are good in theory, but..." Of course you wouldn't! It's silly to expect or demand that of a person. Especially in the 24 hours since their life was turned upside down.
FeepingCreature 9y ago
Sure you can. If you can't be professional in the workplace, take a damn day off. If you can't be professional in front of a crowd, then don't take the stage. Crying is for funerals. And national politics is for soapboxes, not for corporate presentations.
- otxohcyfycj 9y ago
  You might need a little emotional maturity. Crying isn't there end of the world, an idiot with nukes is.
- untog 9y ago
  The fixation on crying in this thread is fascinating. If you feel like crying, but hold back, does that feeling just immediately disappear and you get on with your day? Of course not. You just bury the stress, and sooner or later it bubbles back up again in weird and unpredictable ways. Is crying at work more or less professional than having a panic attack at work and ending up hospitalised? Crying is just an expression of stress. If your actual statement is that people shouldn't be stressed about non-work issues at work, then good luck, that's not how human beings are engineered.
  - trgv 9y ago
    Take a day off if you're so emotionally affected by something that you're unable to stop crying. Or work from home. Anything else is likely to be disruptive to your coworkers. I have a lot of empathy for people experiencing emotional distress, whatever the reason. I would never complain about them and would do my best to offer sympathy when appropriate. But I really shouldn't be put in that position at work, and if I was emotionally disturbed I would not come into work so as to avoid putting my coworkers in that position. I think this is all doubly true if we're talking about the results of an election. Some of your coworkers may be happy for the same reason you're upset.
jrs95 9y ago
Except there was absolutely no talk during the campaign or after the election about cancelling H1B visas...
- sbierwagen 9y ago
  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/03/21/donald-trump-flip-flops-then-flips-and-flops-more-on-h-1b-visas/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/03/...
  - jrs95 9y ago
    How dare he want an immigration policy that benefits American workers before corporations and foreign workers! It's so immoral that I'm literally shaking! /s
- cromwellian 9y ago
  Except that there was, in Bannon's famous "there are too many Asian CEOs" radio interview with Trump, they floated the idea of cutbacks on legal immigration, some of which would impact current immigrants seeking to bring over family members. Moreover, if you were a legal immigrant on an H1-B, and you happened to have dual nationality with one of the "bad" countries on Trump's list, you quickly found out that you could no longer risk travel outside the country. A large number of Canadian-Iranian/British-Iranian immigrants found they were suddenly capable of being banned. Acting like the election campaign was no cause for concern is completely ignoring the obvious warning signs, like "We need a TOTAL SHUTDOWN OF MUSLIMS ENTERING THE COUNTRY". If this had been "We need a total shutdown of JEWS", would you be so flippant with people's concerns about the campaign talk?
  - jrs95 9y ago
    > the idea of cutbacks on legal immigration, some of which would impact current immigrants seeking to bring over family memebers So what? They don't have some sort of magical automatic right to be here just because one of their relatives is. >If this had been "We need a total shutdown of JEWS", would you be so flippant with people's concerns about the campaign talk? If Jewish immigrants had been engaging in the amount of terrorism we've seen in Europe recently...yes, I would be just as flippant.

by untog 9y ago

vkou 9y ago

Exactly. I'll happily stop worrying about politics when politics stops worrying about me. Unsurprisingly, people who feel like Trump is the solution to their 'country being taken away from them' are telling the rest of us to suck it up and stuff it, and to stop bringing politics into everything. I mean, shit, if they took that advice, he never would have been elected.

miketery 9y ago

Except, that's the point - people are overly emotional. All this waking up the next morning and the world is different is such a stretch. Nothing has changed.

untog 9y ago
I'm going to guess you aren't in the US on a visa. "Nothing has changed" is such an absurdly wrong way of looking at the issue. Say you're stood in the street alone. That's normal. Now there's a man stood in front of you with a knife, and he's looking at you threateningly. But he hasn't stabbed you! Nothing has changed. Your body is still unpunctured, so why are you worrying? Throughout his campaign, Trump made overt threats to immigrants and the lives they live in the US. The fact that your entire future becomes incredibly uncertain within the space of 24 hours is absolutely something to get emotional about. To pretend otherwise is silly. As is the idea that turning up to the office without being overtly emotional would somehow mean you're absolutely fine. That stress is going to come out one way or another, personally I think that expressing it (yes, including crying!) is a lot better than the alternatives.
- katastic 9y ago
  >immigrants You missed the "::cough:: illegal ::cough::" Otherwise, please cite a video/audio source of him actually saying he wants to kick out all the legal immigrants.
  - untog 9y ago
    “Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/12/07/donald-trump-calls-for-total-and-complete-shutdown-of-muslims-entering-the-united-states/?utm_term=.cc63319d5de0 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/12... Trump's threats were far from contained to illegal immigrants.
    - baumy 9y ago
      > Otherwise, please cite a video/audio source of him actually saying he wants to kick out all the legal immigrants. I am no Trump fan, but you have failed to do this. Temporarily (or indefinitely) curbing a specific subset of legal immigration is not equivalent to deporting people already in the country.
      - untog 9y ago
        The OP edited their post to add that line after I replied, so I wasn't actually responding to it. > Temporarily (or indefinitely) curbing a specific subset of legal immigration is not equivalent to deporting people already in the country. Is it really that different? If a legally immigrated muslim left the country they would not be allowed back in again. Call me old fashioned, but I feel like a legal immigrant should be allowed to travel.
- miketery 9y ago
  Actually I am in the US, on a visa - albeit I'm Canadian and have a good country to fall back on. Regardless of the president I feel vulnerable on a visa. I empathize with those on DACA or other immigrant situations; however on average I would argue reporting of the issues, the emotions, and reactions are over the top. The news cycle every two weeks is - "immigrants getting kicked out, DACA is over" - three days later "president goes back on his word w/ EO" or "congress not in sync with president; won't change legislation." (not literally, but you get the point).
steve_musk 9y ago
Maybe for you, but for a large portion of America it was definitely like waking up in a new world. Its easy to call people overly emotional when you aren't living in a world where the President of the United States was elected by stoking the hate and fear that a large portion of your fellow citizens have against your race/religion/culture/etc...
- weberc2 9y ago
  I'll be the first to celebrate when Trump leaves office, but all of this "he ran on hate/etc" is at best dramatically overstated and at worst completely fraudulent. There's lots of valid criticism for Trump and his supporters; no need to make things up.
  - steve_musk 9y ago
    No one is making anything up. No, Trump does not come out and say that he hates Muslims, Blacks, etc. But you are either not paying attention or purposefully remaining ignorant if you believe that Trump does not exploit the racism and hate that a large portion of Americans have.
    - weberc2 9y ago
      Maybe I haven't been paying attention. I hear a lot of talk about Trump and supporters being white supremacists, but when I ask his accusers, they aren't able to articulate very significant evidence at all. Most such conversations end with implications that I'm a racist for lacking the astute progressive hearing required to perceive Trump's dog whistles. The irony that dog whistles are (by definition) intended to be perceptible only to actual racists is apparently lost on many progressives.
- miketery 9y ago
  I live in the US. This is my point the sentiment is over blown.
jasonlotito 9y ago
> Nothing has changed. Except is has, and continues to change. These changes are affect real people, people in my family, in profoundly negative ways. That you choose to ignore others doesn't mean nothing has changed. Only that you are ignorant of what is happening.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago

> think - really think! - what it would be like to wake up one morning to the unexpected shock that a President has been elected on the very possible platform of kicking you out of the country and ruining the life you built for yourself. Immigration is a political issue that hasn't been properly addressed in decades. H1B visas are good in theory, but companies exploit the system to import cheap foreign labor, hurting American wages and job prospects in the process. Illegal immigrants concentrate to pockets of the country, displacing American workers and lowering wages for those who have been hurt the most by globalization. Should these political issues be ignored just to avoid hurt feelings? I don't think they should.

untog 9y ago
I don't think anyone is going to dispute the argument you've laid out there, but if you were to do as I suggested and put yourself in the position where your livelihood, home and life are on the line, would you really sit back and think "well, immigration is a political issue that hasn't been properly addressed in decades. H1B visas are good in theory, but..." Of course you wouldn't! It's silly to expect or demand that of a person. Especially in the 24 hours since their life was turned upside down.

FeepingCreature 9y ago

Sure you can. If you can't be professional in the workplace, take a damn day off. If you can't be professional in front of a crowd, then don't take the stage. Crying is for funerals. And national politics is for soapboxes, not for corporate presentations.

otxohcyfycj 9y ago
You might need a little emotional maturity. Crying isn't there end of the world, an idiot with nukes is.
untog 9y ago
The fixation on crying in this thread is fascinating. If you feel like crying, but hold back, does that feeling just immediately disappear and you get on with your day? Of course not. You just bury the stress, and sooner or later it bubbles back up again in weird and unpredictable ways. Is crying at work more or less professional than having a panic attack at work and ending up hospitalised? Crying is just an expression of stress. If your actual statement is that people shouldn't be stressed about non-work issues at work, then good luck, that's not how human beings are engineered.
- trgv 9y ago
  Take a day off if you're so emotionally affected by something that you're unable to stop crying. Or work from home. Anything else is likely to be disruptive to your coworkers. I have a lot of empathy for people experiencing emotional distress, whatever the reason. I would never complain about them and would do my best to offer sympathy when appropriate. But I really shouldn't be put in that position at work, and if I was emotionally disturbed I would not come into work so as to avoid putting my coworkers in that position. I think this is all doubly true if we're talking about the results of an election. Some of your coworkers may be happy for the same reason you're upset.

jrs95 9y ago

Except there was absolutely no talk during the campaign or after the election about cancelling H1B visas...

sbierwagen 9y ago
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/03/21/donald-trump-flip-flops-then-flips-and-flops-more-on-h-1b-visas/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/03/...
- jrs95 9y ago
  How dare he want an immigration policy that benefits American workers before corporations and foreign workers! It's so immoral that I'm literally shaking! /s
cromwellian 9y ago
Except that there was, in Bannon's famous "there are too many Asian CEOs" radio interview with Trump, they floated the idea of cutbacks on legal immigration, some of which would impact current immigrants seeking to bring over family members. Moreover, if you were a legal immigrant on an H1-B, and you happened to have dual nationality with one of the "bad" countries on Trump's list, you quickly found out that you could no longer risk travel outside the country. A large number of Canadian-Iranian/British-Iranian immigrants found they were suddenly capable of being banned. Acting like the election campaign was no cause for concern is completely ignoring the obvious warning signs, like "We need a TOTAL SHUTDOWN OF MUSLIMS ENTERING THE COUNTRY". If this had been "We need a total shutdown of JEWS", would you be so flippant with people's concerns about the campaign talk?
- jrs95 9y ago
  > the idea of cutbacks on legal immigration, some of which would impact current immigrants seeking to bring over family memebers So what? They don't have some sort of magical automatic right to be here just because one of their relatives is. >If this had been "We need a total shutdown of JEWS", would you be so flippant with people's concerns about the campaign talk? If Jewish immigrants had been engaging in the amount of terrorism we've seen in Europe recently...yes, I would be just as flippant.