6 ms·

Indeed, with a 3:2 aspect ratio touch screen and WACOM-level stylus input (via ntrig).

masklinn 9y ago
And a superior GPU, but a significantly lower-class CPU (15W v 45).
alphonsegaston 9y ago
Most creative professionals would disagree that ntrig is anywhere near parity. I work in the field and everyone uses Wacoms of some sort. There was initial excitement when the 1st generation launched with actual Wacom technology, as a lot of us do work in Windows, but it quickly fizzled when Microsoft cheaped out and went with less performant ntrig digitizers.
- wlesieutre 9y ago
  It's a tradeoff. The old SP1s and SP2s with Wacom digitizers get funky at the edges because of how Wacom's technology works. IIRC it's a big array of sensors behind the screen, and they have to extend past the edges of the sensing area to keep accuracy workable across the surface. If you're out at the edge of the grid it can't measure the pen's position accurately. With Wacom's Intuos tablets you've probably noticed they have a really big bezel. Maybe 2-3 inches around every side. It's not just a physical design decision, they need that in order to work. MS couldn't accommodate that on the surface, so the accuracy at the edges dropped off. And this being Windows with a lot of software not designed for touchscreens, that meant you were trying to poke at tiny toolbar buttons in the least accurate region of the digitizer. Ntrig solves that, it's let them at least be consistent across the whole surface, even as bezels got smaller and smaller. But like you said, the peak accuracy of Wacom in the middle of the screen probably beats it. I sold my SP3 to buy a 9.7" iPad Pro when those came out, mainly because I got annoyed with the digitizer. If you draw a line slowly you can see it get visibly pulled back and forth along the digitizer grid. To get smooth lines you have to do fast sweeping strokes, which I really didn't like. For reference, lines drawn on a SP3 in OneNote: http://i.imgur.com/bxpnPSv.png http://i.imgur.com/bxpnPSv.png In an AMA on reddit the Surface team attributed some of the pen performance issues to "capacitive coupling" making the pen not detected as accurately if you let the tip touch a ruler, so those are drawn freehand. Even so, you can clearly see the lines get pulled into the pattern of the ntrig grid.
  - glhaynes 9y ago
    Does the iPad Pro work similarly to either of those?
    - alphonsegaston 9y ago
      The iPad Pro is better than the Surface in terms of the digitizer, but not as good as Wacom.
      - omikun 9y ago
        Where did you hear this? From my personal experience and watching some youtube reviews from concept artists/illustrators, the Pencil beats Wacom hands down.
        vilts 9y ago
        Indeed, I switched from Wacom Cintiq to iPad Pro when it came out. So far it's the best drawing experience I've ever had on a digital device. I also had one of the Surface Pros with ntrig digitizer. It was near impossible to draw properly. Quick sketching is fine, but slow and precise lines were impossible. Cursor just jumped around and was unusable.
        alphonsegaston 9y ago
        I’m an illustrator, have an iPad Pro and a high-end Wacom. Work with a lot of people in the animation industry. No one is regularly using iPads for anything besides sketching/toying with ideas. If Apple made a big push to improve their hardware, get full blown Photoshop with Adobe’s brush engine, this could conceivably change. Everything’s too piecemeal right now though. File management is still terrible, Photoshop brushes are only available in Adobe’s terrible apps, lots of Bluetooth buginess from app to app, inconsistent UI patterns etc. The newest Procreate update and Affinity designer are pretty cool, but it’s still not there yet.
      - dpark 9y ago
        I have a Thinkpad Yoga with a Wacom digitizer. I am distinctly unimpressed. Disclosure: Microsoft employee, so arguably biased toward the Surface.
- binarycrusader 9y ago
  I didn't say WACOM equivalent; I said WACOM-level. Whether or not it is equivalent is a subjective judgement on the part of the user. Personally, the current stylus input supported by ntrig is sufficient for my particular needs. The ntrig technology Microsoft acquired has been significantly improved since its first implementation, so I think your judgements are perhaps somewhat obsolete?
  - alphonsegaston 9y ago
    No, I've been to the Microsoft store and tested out all their new devices. None are on par with even Wacom's Intuos offerings. The Surface Studio seemed especially bad. I'm sure their digitizers work great for the average user, but Wacoms are primarily devices for pros. None of the Surface stuff is at that "level," unless you're comparing them to other (IMO bad) PC integrations.
    - chokolad 9y ago
      Some pros tend to disagree with that assessment https://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2016/10/26/the-surface-studio https://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2016/10/26/the-surfac...
      - alphonsegaston 9y ago
        Of course. But Microsoft also gives that guy free stuff to essentially do PR for them, so there’s that to consider.
        chokolad 9y ago
        To try it out. Gabe bought his own after playing with it.

And a superior GPU, but a significantly lower-class CPU (15W v 45).

Most creative professionals would disagree that ntrig is anywhere near parity. I work in the field and everyone uses Wacoms of some sort. There was initial excitement when the 1st generation launched with actual Wacom technology, as a lot of us do work in Windows, but it quickly fizzled when Microsoft cheaped out and went with less performant ntrig digitizers.

wlesieutre 9y ago
It's a tradeoff. The old SP1s and SP2s with Wacom digitizers get funky at the edges because of how Wacom's technology works. IIRC it's a big array of sensors behind the screen, and they have to extend past the edges of the sensing area to keep accuracy workable across the surface. If you're out at the edge of the grid it can't measure the pen's position accurately. With Wacom's Intuos tablets you've probably noticed they have a really big bezel. Maybe 2-3 inches around every side. It's not just a physical design decision, they need that in order to work. MS couldn't accommodate that on the surface, so the accuracy at the edges dropped off. And this being Windows with a lot of software not designed for touchscreens, that meant you were trying to poke at tiny toolbar buttons in the least accurate region of the digitizer. Ntrig solves that, it's let them at least be consistent across the whole surface, even as bezels got smaller and smaller. But like you said, the peak accuracy of Wacom in the middle of the screen probably beats it. I sold my SP3 to buy a 9.7" iPad Pro when those came out, mainly because I got annoyed with the digitizer. If you draw a line slowly you can see it get visibly pulled back and forth along the digitizer grid. To get smooth lines you have to do fast sweeping strokes, which I really didn't like. For reference, lines drawn on a SP3 in OneNote: http://i.imgur.com/bxpnPSv.png http://i.imgur.com/bxpnPSv.png In an AMA on reddit the Surface team attributed some of the pen performance issues to "capacitive coupling" making the pen not detected as accurately if you let the tip touch a ruler, so those are drawn freehand. Even so, you can clearly see the lines get pulled into the pattern of the ntrig grid.
- glhaynes 9y ago
  Does the iPad Pro work similarly to either of those?
  - alphonsegaston 9y ago
    The iPad Pro is better than the Surface in terms of the digitizer, but not as good as Wacom.
    - omikun 9y ago
      Where did you hear this? From my personal experience and watching some youtube reviews from concept artists/illustrators, the Pencil beats Wacom hands down.
      - vilts 9y ago
        Indeed, I switched from Wacom Cintiq to iPad Pro when it came out. So far it's the best drawing experience I've ever had on a digital device. I also had one of the Surface Pros with ntrig digitizer. It was near impossible to draw properly. Quick sketching is fine, but slow and precise lines were impossible. Cursor just jumped around and was unusable.
      - alphonsegaston 9y ago
        I’m an illustrator, have an iPad Pro and a high-end Wacom. Work with a lot of people in the animation industry. No one is regularly using iPads for anything besides sketching/toying with ideas. If Apple made a big push to improve their hardware, get full blown Photoshop with Adobe’s brush engine, this could conceivably change. Everything’s too piecemeal right now though. File management is still terrible, Photoshop brushes are only available in Adobe’s terrible apps, lots of Bluetooth buginess from app to app, inconsistent UI patterns etc. The newest Procreate update and Affinity designer are pretty cool, but it’s still not there yet.
    - dpark 9y ago
      I have a Thinkpad Yoga with a Wacom digitizer. I am distinctly unimpressed. Disclosure: Microsoft employee, so arguably biased toward the Surface.
binarycrusader 9y ago
I didn't say WACOM equivalent; I said WACOM-level. Whether or not it is equivalent is a subjective judgement on the part of the user. Personally, the current stylus input supported by ntrig is sufficient for my particular needs. The ntrig technology Microsoft acquired has been significantly improved since its first implementation, so I think your judgements are perhaps somewhat obsolete?
- alphonsegaston 9y ago
  No, I've been to the Microsoft store and tested out all their new devices. None are on par with even Wacom's Intuos offerings. The Surface Studio seemed especially bad. I'm sure their digitizers work great for the average user, but Wacoms are primarily devices for pros. None of the Surface stuff is at that "level," unless you're comparing them to other (IMO bad) PC integrations.
  - chokolad 9y ago
    Some pros tend to disagree with that assessment https://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2016/10/26/the-surface-studio https://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2016/10/26/the-surfac...
    - alphonsegaston 9y ago
      Of course. But Microsoft also gives that guy free stuff to essentially do PR for them, so there’s that to consider.
      - chokolad 9y ago
        To try it out. Gabe bought his own after playing with it.