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Though it may seem obvious to people here (on HN) this is a much bigger problem in the industry than people realize. In many ways these bootcamps are repeating

Though it may seem obvious to people here (on HN) this is a much bigger problem in the industry than people realize. In many ways these bootcamps are repeating the problems found at trade schools in the past. I taught at one for a year, MakerSquare, and found it to be a rewarding and positive experience however I know people at others, including the company that ended up buying MakerSquare who have had different experiences. When I worked MakerSquare about three years ago they, Hack Reactor, and I think Dev Bootcamp were trying to lead an initiative that would lead to standardized reporting of hiring stats. This was something we were excited about at MakerSquare because our hiring stats were legitimately great at the time and we knew that in many cases this wasn't true of our competitors. When Hack Reactor bought the company it was assuring to see that they were finding similar success. One thing that concerns me today, however, is that I still see ads on Facebook and other places for Hack Reactor's immersive program that report the exact same stats they were reporting three years ago. I find it very, very hard to believe those numbers are still accurate. In fact I'd go so far as to say they must be lying. They expanded their program dramatically through acquisition (MakerSquare and others) and then ramping up a very large "remote" program (a program that follows the same curriculum but taught entirely online). When I left MakerSquare (then acquired by Hack Reactor) I was under the impression that career services were not provided for remote students. They must be messing with the numbers somehow. There needs to be more honesty in the industry because I believe there really is a great opportunity to do good.

PagingCraig 9y ago
I graduated from HR recently and they do have their CIRR reporting stuff and it's pretty well done. They have tried to drag other bootcamps into using the same statistics, but there is no incentive to do that. I can't speak to their advertising and if the new numbers are reflected in that. I can't see bootcamps being around in 5 years without some major changes. P.S. Career services are provided for remote students.
- dopamean 9y ago
  > P.S. Career services are provided for remote students. Good to hear. There was some debate about whether or not to provide services when I was there. I do wonder how effective those services are however. A big part of providing them is relationships with hiring partners in cities. It's a very tough thing to do from afar.
  - shawndrost 9y ago
    Oh shoot. Now I see what you're talking about and there's something real there. There are actually two teams that help students: one that builds employer relationships, and one that is a career coach and accountability buddy. The latter does the lion's share of the work at all campuses. The former is less-useful to remote alums that look for jobs outside of SF/LA/NY/ATX but they do still put in serious effort (eg we have partners in ATL, Dallas). Hope that clears things up.
shawndrost 9y ago
Hi there -- I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor. I agree with your headline: this is a much bigger problem than people realize. The solution is CIRR (http://cirr.org http://cirr.org). CIRR schools -- including Hack Reactor -- generally report outcome statistics that are similar to Course Report's third-party industry averages (~70% placement rate), whereas non-CIRR schools generally report 9X%. It sounds like you've gotten the a couple of wrong impressions about Hack Reactor. No offense taken (thanks for the kind words too!) and I hope you don't mind if I issue some corrections: We don't use out-of-date statistics in our marketing, and we really don't market based off of statistics at all. It is hard to do so given the problem you pointed out. If you see out-of-date statistics anywhere, it is a grave error that I would love to correct. Please screenshot and email to shawn@hackreactor.com. Current statistics are on our site and cirr.org. Students in our remote program receive the same career services that our other campuses do: about a third of student-facing staff work full-time on helping alums get jobs. The program is not very large (~20 students per cohort) and is one of our better-performing "campuses".
- adamzerner 9y ago
  > third-party industry averages (~70% placement rate) The ~70% placement rate seems to refer to what percentage of applicants get full time jobs within 6 months of graduating. For within 3 months of graduating, the placement rate seems to drop to 30-40%. (See https://cirr.org/data https://cirr.org/data)
  - shawndrost 9y ago
    I was referring to Course Report's third-party industry averages, 75.2% within 180 days. https://www.coursereport.com/reports/2016-coding-bootcamp-job-placement-demographics-report https://www.coursereport.com/reports/2016-coding-bootcamp-jo... What you said is also true though.
mbesto 9y ago
> There needs to be more honesty in the industry because I believe there really is a great opportunity to do good. As long as there is money to be made by throwing around misleading statistics, this is unfortunately not going to happen.
swyx 9y ago
I think bootcamp students and grads need to do more to give back and also clear any misconceptions about the process. I am currently going through one and am recording a long-form narrative documentary about the process following the paths of 8 students in a panel at impostor-syndrome.org. Transparency can come from many fronts.

PagingCraig 9y ago

I graduated from HR recently and they do have their CIRR reporting stuff and it's pretty well done. They have tried to drag other bootcamps into using the same statistics, but there is no incentive to do that. I can't speak to their advertising and if the new numbers are reflected in that. I can't see bootcamps being around in 5 years without some major changes. P.S. Career services are provided for remote students.

dopamean 9y ago
> P.S. Career services are provided for remote students. Good to hear. There was some debate about whether or not to provide services when I was there. I do wonder how effective those services are however. A big part of providing them is relationships with hiring partners in cities. It's a very tough thing to do from afar.
- shawndrost 9y ago
  Oh shoot. Now I see what you're talking about and there's something real there. There are actually two teams that help students: one that builds employer relationships, and one that is a career coach and accountability buddy. The latter does the lion's share of the work at all campuses. The former is less-useful to remote alums that look for jobs outside of SF/LA/NY/ATX but they do still put in serious effort (eg we have partners in ATL, Dallas). Hope that clears things up.

shawndrost 9y ago

Hi there -- I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor. I agree with your headline: this is a much bigger problem than people realize. The solution is CIRR (http://cirr.org http://cirr.org). CIRR schools -- including Hack Reactor -- generally report outcome statistics that are similar to Course Report's third-party industry averages (~70% placement rate), whereas non-CIRR schools generally report 9X%. It sounds like you've gotten the a couple of wrong impressions about Hack Reactor. No offense taken (thanks for the kind words too!) and I hope you don't mind if I issue some corrections: We don't use out-of-date statistics in our marketing, and we really don't market based off of statistics at all. It is hard to do so given the problem you pointed out. If you see out-of-date statistics anywhere, it is a grave error that I would love to correct. Please screenshot and email to shawn@hackreactor.com. Current statistics are on our site and cirr.org. Students in our remote program receive the same career services that our other campuses do: about a third of student-facing staff work full-time on helping alums get jobs. The program is not very large (~20 students per cohort) and is one of our better-performing "campuses".

adamzerner 9y ago
> third-party industry averages (~70% placement rate) The ~70% placement rate seems to refer to what percentage of applicants get full time jobs within 6 months of graduating. For within 3 months of graduating, the placement rate seems to drop to 30-40%. (See https://cirr.org/data https://cirr.org/data)
- shawndrost 9y ago
  I was referring to Course Report's third-party industry averages, 75.2% within 180 days. https://www.coursereport.com/reports/2016-coding-bootcamp-job-placement-demographics-report https://www.coursereport.com/reports/2016-coding-bootcamp-jo... What you said is also true though.

mbesto 9y ago

> There needs to be more honesty in the industry because I believe there really is a great opportunity to do good. As long as there is money to be made by throwing around misleading statistics, this is unfortunately not going to happen.

swyx 9y ago

I think bootcamp students and grads need to do more to give back and also clear any misconceptions about the process. I am currently going through one and am recording a long-form narrative documentary about the process following the paths of 8 students in a panel at impostor-syndrome.org. Transparency can come from many fronts.