5 ms·

Should self worth be tied to success at all?

quadrangle 9y ago
Well, a basic sense of dignity as a human being should certainly not be tied to success. But the important point is that the best way to think about failure and success is as simply facts about what happened. You failed. You succeeded. The problems with fixed mindset relates to treating success as an indication of your self-worth. Doing that means that failure is a rejection of your self-worth. That leads to people fearing failure and thus avoiding taking on risky challenges they may fail at. And yet growth comes from being willing to fail and to persist in the face of failure etc. If I fail at expressing myself clearly in a comment like this, it's better to acknowledge it and think "that comment failed" and think about how to succeed better next time… (I could go on, but I'm not going to invest more time in this comment right now)
- jpttsn 9y ago
  As I see it, your options are fear of failure, fear of success, fear regardless of success/failure, or fearlessness regardless of success/failure. Fear of failure seems like a fantastic choice.
  - Anderkent 9y ago
    Why does it seem like a fantastic choice? Significant fear of failure leads to not attempting things in the first place; that doesn't sound fantastic.
    - jpttsn 9y ago
      Sure it does! I could attempt to fly every time I see an open window. It’s wonderful to fear failure.
  - kwoff 9y ago
    Seems like a "false quachotomy" to me.
    - jpttsn 9y ago
      Enligthen me; what possibility did I miss?
      - quadrangle 9y ago
        Fearing some consequential failures but being fearless of non-risky failures and all other sorts of fuzzy combinations that aren't all-or-nothing / black-and-white.
  - quadrangle 9y ago
    This is all way too black-and-white thinking. You don't have one or the other of these like they are mutually incompatible. You should fear the failure of things that are too risky to even attempt, that's basic safety / risk-analysis. The fear-of-failure that I was talking about is the fear of failing at something that need not have ANY consequences besides the failure itself. To put it another way: you should fear falling to your death when thinking about rock climbing. You shouldn't fear the failure itself but the painful death. Failure isn't worth fearing as a thing itself, only the consequences of failure are worth fearing. If we had to pick one of your options, go with fearlessness. Be scared of actually dangerous things rather than of the abstract experience of failure.
    - jpttsn 9y ago
      I hear that a lot, but I don't buy it. Fearing the failure itself is useful. If failure leads to awful consequences, fearing failure is a shortcut. If it doesn't lead to awful consequences, I'd rethink framing it as failure in the first place. I think I agree with your other point: that's sort of what I'm trying to say. If you know the risk/return of things, you're already in the clear. When you don't, you have four options.
      - quadrangle 9y ago
        I think you're hung up on the semantics (which doesn't mean it's a non-issue, semantics do matter). When people talk about the problem with "fear of failure" they usually mean (at least I do myself) "failure" in the most plain and benign sense. If I am trying to sink a basketball in a basket and I miss, that's failure [to get the ball in the basket that time]. Fear of that failure is unhealthy, period. You seem to be using "failure" strictly for real problematic things and wouldn't even use the word in the case of a simple missed basketball shot. If "failure" as a word to you means something deeper and more profound, something usually associated with real fear-worthy consequences, then (using that semantic approach) the entire recommendation of "not fearing failure" would be reworded as "don't think of normal errors/mistakes as 'failures'". The point is that we agree that fear of fear-worthy consequences and even some buffer of fear of things that risk those consequences is good. That sort of fear is to be respected (even though it may sometimes come up inappropriately). I'm using "failure" in the literal sense where the vast majority of failures have NO connection to any consequences. And I'm using "fear" in the literal sense too. So, while I can have some concern about the possibility of my comment not coming across as clearly as I'd hope, I'm not literally scared to post it out of "fear of failure". Instead, I'm doing my best to be clear, having reasonably concern that drives my effort, and then willing to post and see whether I succeed at reaching you fully or fail to hit the bull's eye in this little thread. Fear of failure isn't needed or helpful here. Fear of failure specifically in a case where I'm discussing something really controversial that could lead to people wanting to rile up an online mob and dox me and ruin my life — that would be an online comment posting situation where the fear is warranted.
- atomical 9y ago
  > Well, a basic sense of dignity as a human being should certainly not be tied to success. Are you saying that in order to have a high self-worth someone needs accomplishments? Your phrase "basic sense of dignity" makes it sound like one can only have a high self-worth if they frame their successes and failures with this process you are advocating. Also, this comment is off-topic. You're reiterating your main point and not addressing my comment.
  - quadrangle 9y ago
    > Are you saying that in order to have a high self-worth someone needs accomplishments? I'm not sure what you even mean by "high-self-worth". I used different terms in my reply to try to make my original point clearer and make sure I was clear to reject the way that some people treat unsuccessful people condescendingly. I think condescension is rarely warranted, certainly not based on what we typically call "success" or "failure". As to "self-worth", I dunno. I'm not sure how we all take that term. I'd rather we drop it entirely and not have any ego about anything. I appreciate the way pride is seen as a sin. All forms of egotism are obnoxious and pathological in my view. People should just accept that they are as they are, focus on being loving and kind to one another while doing all the necessary things to care for themselves and their own well-being. I know I'm being tangential. I'm trying to say that I don't advocate for any idea where I ought to feel that I'm a more valuable person because of my successes. I'd rather the successes be only about their own value. If I succeed at expressing my thoughts to you, the value is in the communication itself and not in self-worth for me or anything.
mmirate 9y ago
Yes, and strongly if not fully. Shouldn't it? If not, why not?
- sli 9y ago
  We don't want kids who struggle with something to feel worthless. That tends to breed depression. Failure should be orthogonal to your feelings of self-worth. It's ok to fail, sometimes it's beneficial to learning (or whatever), but sometimes that needs to be made clear.
  - atomical 9y ago
    What do you mean by orthogonal? I see no reason to tie self-worth to success or failure. It's a disadvantage. You are putting yourself at an unnecessary risk of feeling horrible.
  - mmirate 9y ago
    Their feelings are accurate. Failure, generally, is indeed quite costly, ergo it would be maladaptive to be even vaguely affine to it.
    - quadrangle 9y ago
      You can't say generally that failure is costly. Tons and tons of failures cost nothing at all. Failures are inherent to learning. You can't generalize about the cost of failures, it totally depends on the type of failing. Now, if you read the word as a state of being as in "being a failure" then you missed the entire point. The fixed mindset of seeing yourself in your identity as "a failure" or "a success" is stupid and should be discouraged. Failing is a verb, it's something you do or don't do in all sorts of cases all the time. It would be better to never think any of it is about "being a failure" in some personal identity way.
      - mmirate 9y ago
        Be it measured in raw materials, labor, time or "merely" money, most failures cost. In fact I've yet to hear of a fallible endeavor that can fail without first expending at least some portion of the investment required for success. (And if it requires no investment, I've no idea how it is supposed to produce anything.)
WillReplyfFood 9y ago
Not any longer. We are post peak Jobs after all. The ilusion of self-worth by activity has spawned all these automated-zombie jobs that scream for a drone to give the controlled person theire dignity back.

Well, a basic sense of dignity as a human being should certainly not be tied to success. But the important point is that the best way to think about failure and success is as simply facts about what happened. You failed. You succeeded. The problems with fixed mindset relates to treating success as an indication of your self-worth. Doing that means that failure is a rejection of your self-worth. That leads to people fearing failure and thus avoiding taking on risky challenges they may fail at. And yet growth comes from being willing to fail and to persist in the face of failure etc. If I fail at expressing myself clearly in a comment like this, it's better to acknowledge it and think "that comment failed" and think about how to succeed better next time… (I could go on, but I'm not going to invest more time in this comment right now)

jpttsn 9y ago
As I see it, your options are fear of failure, fear of success, fear regardless of success/failure, or fearlessness regardless of success/failure. Fear of failure seems like a fantastic choice.
- Anderkent 9y ago
  Why does it seem like a fantastic choice? Significant fear of failure leads to not attempting things in the first place; that doesn't sound fantastic.
  - jpttsn 9y ago
    Sure it does! I could attempt to fly every time I see an open window. It’s wonderful to fear failure.
- kwoff 9y ago
  Seems like a "false quachotomy" to me.
  - jpttsn 9y ago
    Enligthen me; what possibility did I miss?
    - quadrangle 9y ago
      Fearing some consequential failures but being fearless of non-risky failures and all other sorts of fuzzy combinations that aren't all-or-nothing / black-and-white.
- quadrangle 9y ago
  This is all way too black-and-white thinking. You don't have one or the other of these like they are mutually incompatible. You should fear the failure of things that are too risky to even attempt, that's basic safety / risk-analysis. The fear-of-failure that I was talking about is the fear of failing at something that need not have ANY consequences besides the failure itself. To put it another way: you should fear falling to your death when thinking about rock climbing. You shouldn't fear the failure itself but the painful death. Failure isn't worth fearing as a thing itself, only the consequences of failure are worth fearing. If we had to pick one of your options, go with fearlessness. Be scared of actually dangerous things rather than of the abstract experience of failure.
  - jpttsn 9y ago
    I hear that a lot, but I don't buy it. Fearing the failure itself is useful. If failure leads to awful consequences, fearing failure is a shortcut. If it doesn't lead to awful consequences, I'd rethink framing it as failure in the first place. I think I agree with your other point: that's sort of what I'm trying to say. If you know the risk/return of things, you're already in the clear. When you don't, you have four options.
    - quadrangle 9y ago
      I think you're hung up on the semantics (which doesn't mean it's a non-issue, semantics do matter). When people talk about the problem with "fear of failure" they usually mean (at least I do myself) "failure" in the most plain and benign sense. If I am trying to sink a basketball in a basket and I miss, that's failure [to get the ball in the basket that time]. Fear of that failure is unhealthy, period. You seem to be using "failure" strictly for real problematic things and wouldn't even use the word in the case of a simple missed basketball shot. If "failure" as a word to you means something deeper and more profound, something usually associated with real fear-worthy consequences, then (using that semantic approach) the entire recommendation of "not fearing failure" would be reworded as "don't think of normal errors/mistakes as 'failures'". The point is that we agree that fear of fear-worthy consequences and even some buffer of fear of things that risk those consequences is good. That sort of fear is to be respected (even though it may sometimes come up inappropriately). I'm using "failure" in the literal sense where the vast majority of failures have NO connection to any consequences. And I'm using "fear" in the literal sense too. So, while I can have some concern about the possibility of my comment not coming across as clearly as I'd hope, I'm not literally scared to post it out of "fear of failure". Instead, I'm doing my best to be clear, having reasonably concern that drives my effort, and then willing to post and see whether I succeed at reaching you fully or fail to hit the bull's eye in this little thread. Fear of failure isn't needed or helpful here. Fear of failure specifically in a case where I'm discussing something really controversial that could lead to people wanting to rile up an online mob and dox me and ruin my life — that would be an online comment posting situation where the fear is warranted.
atomical 9y ago
> Well, a basic sense of dignity as a human being should certainly not be tied to success. Are you saying that in order to have a high self-worth someone needs accomplishments? Your phrase "basic sense of dignity" makes it sound like one can only have a high self-worth if they frame their successes and failures with this process you are advocating. Also, this comment is off-topic. You're reiterating your main point and not addressing my comment.
- quadrangle 9y ago
  > Are you saying that in order to have a high self-worth someone needs accomplishments? I'm not sure what you even mean by "high-self-worth". I used different terms in my reply to try to make my original point clearer and make sure I was clear to reject the way that some people treat unsuccessful people condescendingly. I think condescension is rarely warranted, certainly not based on what we typically call "success" or "failure". As to "self-worth", I dunno. I'm not sure how we all take that term. I'd rather we drop it entirely and not have any ego about anything. I appreciate the way pride is seen as a sin. All forms of egotism are obnoxious and pathological in my view. People should just accept that they are as they are, focus on being loving and kind to one another while doing all the necessary things to care for themselves and their own well-being. I know I'm being tangential. I'm trying to say that I don't advocate for any idea where I ought to feel that I'm a more valuable person because of my successes. I'd rather the successes be only about their own value. If I succeed at expressing my thoughts to you, the value is in the communication itself and not in self-worth for me or anything.

mmirate 9y ago

Yes, and strongly if not fully. Shouldn't it? If not, why not?

sli 9y ago
We don't want kids who struggle with something to feel worthless. That tends to breed depression. Failure should be orthogonal to your feelings of self-worth. It's ok to fail, sometimes it's beneficial to learning (or whatever), but sometimes that needs to be made clear.
- atomical 9y ago
  What do you mean by orthogonal? I see no reason to tie self-worth to success or failure. It's a disadvantage. You are putting yourself at an unnecessary risk of feeling horrible.
- mmirate 9y ago
  Their feelings are accurate. Failure, generally, is indeed quite costly, ergo it would be maladaptive to be even vaguely affine to it.
  - quadrangle 9y ago
    You can't say generally that failure is costly. Tons and tons of failures cost nothing at all. Failures are inherent to learning. You can't generalize about the cost of failures, it totally depends on the type of failing. Now, if you read the word as a state of being as in "being a failure" then you missed the entire point. The fixed mindset of seeing yourself in your identity as "a failure" or "a success" is stupid and should be discouraged. Failing is a verb, it's something you do or don't do in all sorts of cases all the time. It would be better to never think any of it is about "being a failure" in some personal identity way.
    - mmirate 9y ago
      Be it measured in raw materials, labor, time or "merely" money, most failures cost. In fact I've yet to hear of a fallible endeavor that can fail without first expending at least some portion of the investment required for success. (And if it requires no investment, I've no idea how it is supposed to produce anything.)

WillReplyfFood 9y ago

Not any longer. We are post peak Jobs after all. The ilusion of self-worth by activity has spawned all these automated-zombie jobs that scream for a drone to give the controlled person theire dignity back.