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This isn't improving mental health, it's just destroying it in a different way than negativity destroys it. Sure, we all want social approval, but this sort of
by quadrangle 9y ago
This isn't improving mental health, it's just destroying it in a different way than negativity destroys it.
Sure, we all want social approval, but this sort of thing is about creating a system to depend on. It seems designed just like other social media, aiming to cause people to feel a need for TBH approval and a social obligation to participate in showing your approval of others.
People should drop the entire concept of caring about aspects of their identify as fixed traits such as those TBH focuses on. Having a nice smile (or not) or being viewed as the most talented at whatever skill are traits that are phrased as fixed judgments of a person.
Instead, we need to focus on acknowledging success for particular actions and recognizing the potential for growth in areas where we can improve. See (e.g.) http://malcolmocean.com/2014/07/growth-mindset-reframing/ http://malcolmocean.com/2014/07/growth-mindset-reframing/
TBH is more likely to lead to dysfunctional fixed mindsets than to inspire anyone to do anything good or feel good about themselves in a healthy growth-focused way.
- atomical 9y agoShould self worth be tied to success at all?
- quadrangle 9y agoWell, a basic sense of dignity as a human being should certainly not be tied to success. But the important point is that the best way to think about failure and success is as simply facts about what happened. You failed. You succeeded. The problems with fixed mindset relates to treating success as an indication of your self-worth. Doing that means that failure is a rejection of your self-worth. That leads to people fearing failure and thus avoiding taking on risky challenges they may fail at. And yet growth comes from being willing to fail and to persist in the face of failure etc. If I fail at expressing myself clearly in a comment like this, it's better to acknowledge it and think "that comment failed" and think about how to succeed better next time… (I could go on, but I'm not going to invest more time in this comment right now)
- jpttsn 9y agoAs I see it, your options are fear of failure, fear of success, fear regardless of success/failure, or fearlessness regardless of success/failure. Fear of failure seems like a fantastic choice.
- Anderkent 9y agoWhy does it seem like a fantastic choice? Significant fear of failure leads to not attempting things in the first place; that doesn't sound fantastic.
- jpttsn 9y agoSure it does! I could attempt to fly every time I see an open window. It’s wonderful to fear failure.
- kwoff 9y agoSeems like a "false quachotomy" to me.
- jpttsn 9y agoEnligthen me; what possibility did I miss?
- quadrangle 9y agoFearing some consequential failures but being fearless of non-risky failures and all other sorts of fuzzy combinations that aren't all-or-nothing / black-and-white.
- quadrangle 9y agoThis is all way too black-and-white thinking. You don't have one or the other of these like they are mutually incompatible. You should fear the failure of things that are too risky to even attempt, that's basic safety / risk-analysis. The fear-of-failure that I was talking about is the fear of failing at something that need not have ANY consequences besides the failure itself. To put it another way: you should fear falling to your death when thinking about rock climbing. You shouldn't fear the failure itself but the painful death. Failure isn't worth fearing as a thing itself, only the consequences of failure are worth fearing. If we had to pick one of your options, go with fearlessness. Be scared of actually dangerous things rather than of the abstract experience of failure.
- mmirate 9y agoYes, and strongly if not fully. Shouldn't it? If not, why not?
- sli 9y agoWe don't want kids who struggle with something to feel worthless. That tends to breed depression. Failure should be orthogonal to your feelings of self-worth. It's ok to fail, sometimes it's beneficial to learning (or whatever), but sometimes that needs to be made clear.
- atomical 9y agoWhat do you mean by orthogonal? I see no reason to tie self-worth to success or failure. It's a disadvantage. You are putting yourself at an unnecessary risk of feeling horrible.
- mmirate 9y agoTheir feelings are accurate. Failure, generally, is indeed quite costly, ergo it would be maladaptive to be even vaguely affine to it.
- quadrangle 9y agoYou can't say generally that failure is costly. Tons and tons of failures cost nothing at all. Failures are inherent to learning. You can't generalize about the cost of failures, it totally depends on the type of failing. Now, if you read the word as a state of being as in "being a failure" then you missed the entire point. The fixed mindset of seeing yourself in your identity as "a failure" or "a success" is stupid and should be discouraged. Failing is a verb, it's something you do or don't do in all sorts of cases all the time. It would be better to never think any of it is about "being a failure" in some personal identity way.
- mmirate 9y agoBe it measured in raw materials, labor, time or "merely" money, most failures cost. In fact I've yet to hear of a fallible endeavor that can fail without first expending at least some portion of the investment required for success. (And if it requires no investment, I've no idea how it is supposed to produce anything.)
- WillReplyfFood 9y agoNot any longer. We are post peak Jobs after all. The ilusion of self-worth by activity has spawned all these automated-zombie jobs that scream for a drone to give the controlled person theire dignity back.
- dsacco 9y agoI don’t really follow how an app like this leads to dysfunctional mindsets. Your slippery slope argument feels hysterical; this is just an app, and it’s a digital version of what teens already do...
- NegatioN 9y agoBut it's not supplying teens with a better alternative though. It's reinforcing something healthy adults know (intellectualy) isn't ha healthy way to view yourself and the world. Teens don't necessarily yet have that frame of reference. One can only hope that everyone receives the support from family or friends to see their self-worth tied to something else than this, no?
- quadrangle 9y agoI wasn't only making a slippery-slope argument, it was just one aspect of this. And it's based on my understanding that there really is a slippery slope in THIS case (although I didn't write a full essay explaining the evidence). > a digital version of what teens already do That would be nothing more than open-ended chat such as teens communicating via text-messages or online forums. An analog version of TBH would be a structured system in which employees of for-profit companies go to high schools and facilitate teen gossip, inject themselves into a circle of girls hanging out in the hall and prompt them with these questions etc. I would like to think you can consider for yourself the ramifications here. Teens do lots of stuff, some of which is kinda shitty even when it seems positive on the surface, and TBH is a for-profit app trying to monetize and control it while spouting some B.S. about how they're doing something positive somehow.
- Splines 9y agoA little OT, but personally I'm tired of hearing the term "growth mindset". It's a business buzzword that has become as meaningless as the inspirational posters of the 80's and the "hang in there" cat of the 70's. I have children and I try to praise their effort and encourage them as much as possible. I do not ask them if they have a "growth mindset". (Apologies to parent - I'm just venting)
- westoncb 9y agoActually it's a pretty specific thing from the work of Carol Dweck: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset#Fixed_and_growth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset#Fixed_and_growth As with any popular technical concept, many users will drop some of the subtleties, and I think 'growth mindset' has gotten big enough that you start seeing people using it loosely to justify various things—but there is something specific and maybe quite useful at the core.
- lmm 9y agoIt's a specific thing but the evidence is questionable. IIRC most of Dweck's studies and findings have failed to replicate.
- quadrangle 9y agoI'm not certain that the "growth mindset" research is solid, lots of psychological science isn't that certain actually. But I think it's supported more than not. The key point here: saying "you have a fixed mindset" and "you have a growth mindset" are THEMSELVES statements of a fixed mindset in this perspective! It's not strict in that it doesn't imply that you can't change. but my favorite part of the perspective is the broader thing that can be divorced from "growth mindset": that we should focus on the actions and intentions rather than on personal judgments. There are reasons outside of "growth mindset" (such as plain improved interpersonal communication) to avoid focusing on personal judgment. If you say, "I don't like that 'growth mindset' stuff", consider how much better it sounds for me to say "That's doesn't seem like an open-minded view of the idea" instead of saying, "You don't seem like an open-minded person." The "growth mindset" is just one framing. I'm asserting that we really do need to get away from things that encourage kids (and everyone) from taking everything so personally. We can all respond better to both positive and negative feedback when it isn't seen as a personal judgment. We need to go away from the entire emphasis that personal judgments are something to focus on.
- z3t4 9y agoI think Positive psychology and Character Strengths would be a good place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_Strengths_and_Virtues_(book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_Strengths_and_Virtue...
- quadrangle 9y agoThat seems like good stuff to pursue when you do focus on personal judgments, but I was emphasizing getting away from personal judgments. Instead of caring that you are a curious person (like an identifier), just be curious. It's a way to be now and tomorrow and on, a habit to have. We should get away from focusing on who you are which is what is a more fixed mindset.
- z3t4 9y agoIdentifying character strengths can be powerful. Imagine an role-playig (computer) game (RGP): "I use my curiously to learn a new language" where he/she gets a +5 modifier on the dice roll vs "I learn a new language" without a modifier. Usually thinking your are good at something helps to make you good at it, and thinking you're talented can help motivation.
- quadrangle 9y agoI see your point but don't personally relate at all. I don't need some sort of personal identification with my curiosity. It's wholly uninteresting to me to have that sort of ego in the situation. It's just a plain fact that I'm curious and that's part of my motivations in learning. I don't need some reinforcement. In fact, I find emphasizing the idea of feeling good about having curiosity in a personal sense ("my curiosity) to be an awkward ego-boost. I don't do better by thinking I'm good at stuff, it's a distraction. I happen to be a musician and music teacher. I know from personal experience, knowledge of psychology research, and experience talking with many others that the whole idea of being talented and good at music is a source for the worst of depressive performance anxiety. The most skilled musicians beat themselves up over little mistakes even when the audience loved the concert. On the flip side, narcissistic self-absorbed musicians can be technically skilled but obnoxious. Get the ego out of all of this. The point is to do something meaningful in the world. I got over my performance anxieties when I learned to stop caring about whether I was judged as good or bad or talented or whatever and just focused instead on using whatever skills I have to provide maximum value for audiences and students. I still think about all the ways I could do better and I can tell you where I succeed. I mean, I can plainly describe my failures and successes. But I'm only interested in doing better so that I provide more value and meaning to others. Every time anything is about me and my ego, it's misguided. The goal is to be expressive rather than impressive. Pride should go away entirely. I actually became a musician because I found it fascinating and challenging whereas I resented people assuming I'd be a mathematician because I was naturally good at math. I have a knack for math, I'm good at it. So what? That didn't make me motivated. I think all the stuff you're getting at lives within the smaller context where people who are self-conscious and in the normal range of egocentricity do indeed take motivation from ego-boosts. Unfortunately, ego-boosts amplify the deeper disease, since the real goal is ego elimination as far as we can. There's evidence from psychological research (sorry this is memory from reading, don't have citation) that feedback like "you had a good sense of rhythm there" and "you got all the notes right but need to work on keeping the dynamics even" are correlated with experienced successful teaching and successful students whereas "good job!" and "you're so talented" are throwaway crap that inexperienced teachers say. In a recent chat, someone shared the anecdote that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar at UCLA early in his basketball career broke major records in like his first game, and his coach just said "good job, keep it up" (along with continued coaching on improvements etc) instead of giving him praise about how great he was. As I heard it, Kareem said it was the best thing for him. The last thing he needed was more praise and ego-boosting.
- citizenpaul 9y agoThis ++