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I've lived on that, so try again. Why do you believe that's crazy? $500 apt $150 car insurance $100 utilities $ 50 media (Netflix, Spotify, etc) You're tak

I've lived on that, so try again. Why do you believe that's crazy? $500 apt $150 car insurance $100 utilities $ 50 media (Netflix, Spotify, etc) You're taking home about $1800 a month, so that still leaves another $1000 to fill out the rest (food, gasoline, etc). That's plenty of money. You aren't going to be making regular trips to Hawaii, but that's more than enough to do whatever you'd like.

tempYeez 9y ago
That leaves you 700 bucks a month not including the 15% taxes. Once issue and you'd be living month to month as soon as anything actually happened.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  That's with taxes taken out. Pre-taxes it is $2500 a month. Most people are an issue away from month to month.
  - tempYeez 9y ago
    And you think thats ok. One car breakdown and then you can't get to work.
yahna 9y ago
> 500 apt My shitty apartment in a small city (80k) was 615 a month. 100 dollars a month for gas/water/power? You need internet for that media consumption. You need gas for that car. Cell phone? Food?
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  That's why you have another $1000 a month, as the math suggests.
slezakattack 9y ago
The apartment complex i lived in while in Rapid City, South Dakota was $650 (2011-2012)...How many places in the US do you think have $500 rent where you need no roommates, completely functional (A/C, heat, working kitchen), in a low-crime area?
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  My friend today lives in an apt with all that (not an efficiency) at $650 a month. I had another friend who was in a less accessible (but still nice) location for $500, I've lived in a $450 apt. They are available in some locations.
- LyndsySimon 9y ago
  By land area, most of the country. In the town nearest where I grew up, $500 will get you a 2 bed, 1.5 bath apartment on a golf course. http://www.linksatharrison.apartments/floorplans.aspx http://www.linksatharrison.apartments/floorplans.aspx
didibus 9y ago
I don't know, that's leaving out a lot of expenses, like the TV and computer to consume the media, the phone and internet, a means to transport yourself to and back from work, food which is generally almost equal in cost to rent, clothes and shoes, medical expenses, etc. This also assumes 30k per member of a household. And don't forget a good 3k to 5k going to tax depending on your state. Its also ignoring any savings, so your old age will be deplorable, and any accident or sudden loss of work will also be extremely rough.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  It's not though. That's counting taxes, it is leaving over an additional $1000 a month to pay those other expenses (you pick) and it even includes car insurance when there are more economical ways to transport (but if you just have to have a car...). Don't get me wrong, you wouldn't want to live like this for 30 years (though if you had good credit and then got your own house, you could easily reduce those costs, too), and it takes sacrifice, but the entire reason I mentioned 30k is because 30k isn't that hard to make, and despite that, you still have an easy road to it and (some) disposable income. If you want more, you have to work harder, not shocking, but what you can do on 30k if you try is astounding. It's certainly not the impoverished, destitute slavery some people are acting like it is.
  - didibus 9y ago
    I agree with you, we're not talking destitute slavery, but why is that your point of comparison? In my opinion, the average American income should be able to support a family. At least 1 kid and a stay at home parent. That feels like that 30k gets stretched pretty thin in that case. And if it was an option to make more by working harder, I'd say fine, but I'm not so sure it is. I think you can only make more by working smarter, and thats going to come at an investment of both time and money. Not sure where in the 30k the money would come from. I'm still not convinced by that budget of yours though. If you live remote so that your rent and food cost gets down to 500$ and 200$ a month, you'll need a car. Which is itself a 30k purchase. So now you've got one loan already, lets say 200$ extra a month. Then the gas will eat another 100$ at least. 500 rent + 200 food + 200 car + 150 car insurance/maintenance + 100 gas + 100 phone/internet + 100 utilities + 100 medical/dental insurance + 50 media. That's 1500$ already. Now you need to furnish your appartment, get a laptop, a TV. Lets say you do all that for 5k. And amortize it over 3 years, say you got another loan for it. Now you've got 150$ per month downpayments for that. Now we're at 1650$ a month. Now with income tax, you only have 2000$ a month, assuming you live in Iwoa. So you're left with 350$. I feel at least another 100$ needs to be added for clothes and household goods. So 250$ left a month. At this point, all you do is work, consume media and eat at home always. And your saving maybe 250$ a month. I feel that's more realistic a budget. Again, I see no room for any dependents, no kid, no partner that's not also working. So while again, I agree with you, this isn't terrible, it sounds quite unfulfilling. There's barely any wiggle room for any kind of hobby, travel, lesson, etc. And obviously any health issue or temporary loss of job will mean lots more dept will accrue. Anyways, I think all that would be totally fine if we had cheap or free education and a free or cheap healthcare and a slightly better unemployment benefit. Without that, I don't really see where are the opportunities to make more. You can't afford school, you can't afford to switch jobs, and you can't afford to get sick or old.
noobermin 9y ago
Again, what you're stating is the minimum of the distribution, not near the mean. I can sometimes do $100 in utilities but frequently during the winter, I have to pay for >$100 per month for power alone. I rent so I can't wait for the landlord to read their maintenance requests and patch up the holes. I once cut my power bill during the winter by sleeping in a closet with a space heater. Other times, I hung out in coffee shops to avoid having to be home and having to turn on the heater. May be that's the kind of living you imagine that isn't crazy, but I don't imagine everyone is willing to live like that.
mbillie1 9y ago
It's not enough to travel, save, have any remotely expensive hobbies (sports equipment for just one of many examples), or survive a car breakdown, buy a car if you don't already have one, and so on. It's funny that you budget in "media" automatically - so you've got just enough cash to eat, work, come home and plug in and to all the people living better than you, all the social signals that say you are your paycheck, and so on. I agree it's a much better position to be in than say, indentured servitude, but it's naive to just expect or declare that people be happy living like this and stay happy living like this for the foreseeable future.
nickthemagicman 9y ago
You didn't count taxes, car payment, utilities, health insurance, and other bills like phone...in there. You deff had help from your parents to so blithely discount those expenses.

tempYeez 9y ago

That leaves you 700 bucks a month not including the 15% taxes. Once issue and you'd be living month to month as soon as anything actually happened.

aaron-lebo 9y ago
That's with taxes taken out. Pre-taxes it is $2500 a month. Most people are an issue away from month to month.
- tempYeez 9y ago
  And you think thats ok. One car breakdown and then you can't get to work.

yahna 9y ago

> 500 apt My shitty apartment in a small city (80k) was 615 a month. 100 dollars a month for gas/water/power? You need internet for that media consumption. You need gas for that car. Cell phone? Food?

aaron-lebo 9y ago
That's why you have another $1000 a month, as the math suggests.

slezakattack 9y ago

The apartment complex i lived in while in Rapid City, South Dakota was $650 (2011-2012)...How many places in the US do you think have $500 rent where you need no roommates, completely functional (A/C, heat, working kitchen), in a low-crime area?

aaron-lebo 9y ago
My friend today lives in an apt with all that (not an efficiency) at $650 a month. I had another friend who was in a less accessible (but still nice) location for $500, I've lived in a $450 apt. They are available in some locations.
LyndsySimon 9y ago
By land area, most of the country. In the town nearest where I grew up, $500 will get you a 2 bed, 1.5 bath apartment on a golf course. http://www.linksatharrison.apartments/floorplans.aspx http://www.linksatharrison.apartments/floorplans.aspx

didibus 9y ago

I don't know, that's leaving out a lot of expenses, like the TV and computer to consume the media, the phone and internet, a means to transport yourself to and back from work, food which is generally almost equal in cost to rent, clothes and shoes, medical expenses, etc. This also assumes 30k per member of a household. And don't forget a good 3k to 5k going to tax depending on your state. Its also ignoring any savings, so your old age will be deplorable, and any accident or sudden loss of work will also be extremely rough.

aaron-lebo 9y ago
It's not though. That's counting taxes, it is leaving over an additional $1000 a month to pay those other expenses (you pick) and it even includes car insurance when there are more economical ways to transport (but if you just have to have a car...). Don't get me wrong, you wouldn't want to live like this for 30 years (though if you had good credit and then got your own house, you could easily reduce those costs, too), and it takes sacrifice, but the entire reason I mentioned 30k is because 30k isn't that hard to make, and despite that, you still have an easy road to it and (some) disposable income. If you want more, you have to work harder, not shocking, but what you can do on 30k if you try is astounding. It's certainly not the impoverished, destitute slavery some people are acting like it is.
- didibus 9y ago
  I agree with you, we're not talking destitute slavery, but why is that your point of comparison? In my opinion, the average American income should be able to support a family. At least 1 kid and a stay at home parent. That feels like that 30k gets stretched pretty thin in that case. And if it was an option to make more by working harder, I'd say fine, but I'm not so sure it is. I think you can only make more by working smarter, and thats going to come at an investment of both time and money. Not sure where in the 30k the money would come from. I'm still not convinced by that budget of yours though. If you live remote so that your rent and food cost gets down to 500$ and 200$ a month, you'll need a car. Which is itself a 30k purchase. So now you've got one loan already, lets say 200$ extra a month. Then the gas will eat another 100$ at least. 500 rent + 200 food + 200 car + 150 car insurance/maintenance + 100 gas + 100 phone/internet + 100 utilities + 100 medical/dental insurance + 50 media. That's 1500$ already. Now you need to furnish your appartment, get a laptop, a TV. Lets say you do all that for 5k. And amortize it over 3 years, say you got another loan for it. Now you've got 150$ per month downpayments for that. Now we're at 1650$ a month. Now with income tax, you only have 2000$ a month, assuming you live in Iwoa. So you're left with 350$. I feel at least another 100$ needs to be added for clothes and household goods. So 250$ left a month. At this point, all you do is work, consume media and eat at home always. And your saving maybe 250$ a month. I feel that's more realistic a budget. Again, I see no room for any dependents, no kid, no partner that's not also working. So while again, I agree with you, this isn't terrible, it sounds quite unfulfilling. There's barely any wiggle room for any kind of hobby, travel, lesson, etc. And obviously any health issue or temporary loss of job will mean lots more dept will accrue. Anyways, I think all that would be totally fine if we had cheap or free education and a free or cheap healthcare and a slightly better unemployment benefit. Without that, I don't really see where are the opportunities to make more. You can't afford school, you can't afford to switch jobs, and you can't afford to get sick or old.

noobermin 9y ago

Again, what you're stating is the minimum of the distribution, not near the mean. I can sometimes do $100 in utilities but frequently during the winter, I have to pay for >$100 per month for power alone. I rent so I can't wait for the landlord to read their maintenance requests and patch up the holes. I once cut my power bill during the winter by sleeping in a closet with a space heater. Other times, I hung out in coffee shops to avoid having to be home and having to turn on the heater. May be that's the kind of living you imagine that isn't crazy, but I don't imagine everyone is willing to live like that.

mbillie1 9y ago

It's not enough to travel, save, have any remotely expensive hobbies (sports equipment for just one of many examples), or survive a car breakdown, buy a car if you don't already have one, and so on. It's funny that you budget in "media" automatically - so you've got just enough cash to eat, work, come home and plug in and to all the people living better than you, all the social signals that say you are your paycheck, and so on. I agree it's a much better position to be in than say, indentured servitude, but it's naive to just expect or declare that people be happy living like this and stay happy living like this for the foreseeable future.

nickthemagicman 9y ago

You didn't count taxes, car payment, utilities, health insurance, and other bills like phone...in there. You deff had help from your parents to so blithely discount those expenses.