6 ms·

Agreed, and I don't understand the hate many people (seem to) have for them - the most ergonomic keyboards are those that require the least amount of repetitive

by bhj 9y ago

Agreed, and I don't understand the hate many people (seem to) have for them - the most ergonomic keyboards are those that require the least amount of repetitive motion. Not that there isn't an adjustment period, but some seem to pull out their Jump To Conclusion mats a little early.

deathanatos 9y ago
There's essentially no range of motion in a MBP keyboard anymore: there is no difference between not pressing the key, actuating the key, and bottoming out the key. Some people (such as yourself) seem to prefer it, but to me it feels much rougher than comparable keyboards, like typing on a hard plastic surface. There is no give or play in the keystroke. Compared to a Lenovo T460p's keyboard (the other machine I own), the Lenovo is a lot "softer" to type on. (And quieter, too.) Mostly, I dislike the feel. Now, my wrists also hurt. Now, when I'm not travelling, I was using an external Apple keyboard, not the MBP's primarily, so I'm hesitant to blame the MBP's keyboard directly. The external Apple keyboard has a greater keystroke distance from start to bottoming out, but still has like zero distance between actuation and bottoming out. (For some keystrokes, particularly ^+Tab and ^+Shift+Tab, I find it hard to keep control actuated, despite it being fully depressed; it just seems to require a lot of pressure to keep things in electrical contact). The pain in my wrists didn't start until I started using Apple keyboards, and has mostly stopped since I've replaced them. (I now primarily use an ErgoDox EZ, primarily for the split/ability to independently position my hands. I had tried, and had similar success w/ a Kinesis Freestyle, but I didn't own it.) (I used a MBP keyboard for ~4yrs, with an ergo keyboard of some kind for when I'm not travelling for ~half of that. I've used Thinkpad's of varying models for ~10 years. Now, I could just be getting old, but replacing the Apple keyboard is what made the difference thus far for me. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, admittedly: my wrists are, I feel, in the same bad position on the Lenovo as they are on the MBP/Apple keyboard.)
- rconti 9y ago
  Because they're talking about USB keyboards they're probably talking about the chicklet Apple "Pro" USB keyboard, not the new MBP's built in keyboard. Which, I agree-- I've only typed on the actual laptop itself a handful of times, but man, those key movements are SHORT and I'm not sure I really like it. Time will tell, though -- I originally felt the same way about the chicklet keyboards i love now.
deong 9y ago
Not all repetitive motions are equal. It's far more complex than that. The relative angles your joints are held at during the motion, rotations, etc, are far more important than just some simple metric around number of repetitions or distance travelled. Saying less motion is better is like saying lifting less weight is better. You'll sooner fuck up your back lifting 40 pounds incorrectly than 80 pounds correctly.
ewjordan 9y ago
"the most ergonomic keyboards are those that require the least amount of repetitive motion" Not sure I can agree with that. I was using one of the Apple keyboards for quite a long time while running liveops on an online game (which meant rapid response whenever incidents happened, jumping into shells and constantly typing like my life depended on it), and developed fairly severe wrist problems within a couple months. To the point where I almost had to leave the job on disability, per my doctor's orders. On the recommendation of a friend, before taking that step I tried switching to a Kinesis Advantage for the better wrist alignment and less "hard" keystroke bottom as compared to the chiclets on the Apple keyboard. It was a bit of a learning curve (~2 weeks to get up to full typing speed when using it every day, a couple more to push past it), but at the end of it my wrists got better almost instantly, and I never had problems again. My typing speed went up as well. I'm not sure how much of that improvement is due to the better alignment of keys (there's almost no hand movement when typing, and your wrists are always neutral) and how much is due to the bigger key action and softer bottom, to be fair. Edit: it's worth mentioning that I'm also a boxer and a piano player, so my wrists take a lot of abuse on a regular basis. YMMV and if you're not having problems, I definitely found the Apple keyboards to be very easy and fast to use.
- gh02t 9y ago
  Ditto, after a bad strain injury on my wrist I bought a Kinesis. I don't think I could really use a computer without it. For me though it's mostly wrist angle; while I love the tactile mechanical switches I don't think the impact is a huge factor unless you are prone to pressing very hard on a scissor switch or a linear switch.
  - digi_owl 9y ago
    I seem to recall the old IBM keyboard was designed it way it was to provide tactile and auditory feedback that the input had been registered before the key bottomed out. This to reduce long term strain injuries. After all, the primary use of a computer back then would be writing. Be it codes or reports.
- Moru 9y ago
bitwize 9y ago
If you can't adjust to an Apple keyboard (and don't have RSI), the problem is you -- not the keyboard. Retrain yourself to type softly.
- ionised 9y ago
  Why?
Phrodo_00 9y ago
you don't need to bottom out regular mechanical keyboards, which means you're not constantly slamming your finger against a hard surface. You do need to bottom out scissor switches.

by bhj 9y ago

deathanatos 9y ago

There's essentially no range of motion in a MBP keyboard anymore: there is no difference between not pressing the key, actuating the key, and bottoming out the key. Some people (such as yourself) seem to prefer it, but to me it feels much rougher than comparable keyboards, like typing on a hard plastic surface. There is no give or play in the keystroke. Compared to a Lenovo T460p's keyboard (the other machine I own), the Lenovo is a lot "softer" to type on. (And quieter, too.) Mostly, I dislike the feel. Now, my wrists also hurt. Now, when I'm not travelling, I was using an external Apple keyboard, not the MBP's primarily, so I'm hesitant to blame the MBP's keyboard directly. The external Apple keyboard has a greater keystroke distance from start to bottoming out, but still has like zero distance between actuation and bottoming out. (For some keystrokes, particularly ^+Tab and ^+Shift+Tab, I find it hard to keep control actuated, despite it being fully depressed; it just seems to require a lot of pressure to keep things in electrical contact). The pain in my wrists didn't start until I started using Apple keyboards, and has mostly stopped since I've replaced them. (I now primarily use an ErgoDox EZ, primarily for the split/ability to independently position my hands. I had tried, and had similar success w/ a Kinesis Freestyle, but I didn't own it.) (I used a MBP keyboard for ~4yrs, with an ergo keyboard of some kind for when I'm not travelling for ~half of that. I've used Thinkpad's of varying models for ~10 years. Now, I could just be getting old, but replacing the Apple keyboard is what made the difference thus far for me. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, admittedly: my wrists are, I feel, in the same bad position on the Lenovo as they are on the MBP/Apple keyboard.)

rconti 9y ago
Because they're talking about USB keyboards they're probably talking about the chicklet Apple "Pro" USB keyboard, not the new MBP's built in keyboard. Which, I agree-- I've only typed on the actual laptop itself a handful of times, but man, those key movements are SHORT and I'm not sure I really like it. Time will tell, though -- I originally felt the same way about the chicklet keyboards i love now.

deong 9y ago

Not all repetitive motions are equal. It's far more complex than that. The relative angles your joints are held at during the motion, rotations, etc, are far more important than just some simple metric around number of repetitions or distance travelled. Saying less motion is better is like saying lifting less weight is better. You'll sooner fuck up your back lifting 40 pounds incorrectly than 80 pounds correctly.

ewjordan 9y ago

"the most ergonomic keyboards are those that require the least amount of repetitive motion" Not sure I can agree with that. I was using one of the Apple keyboards for quite a long time while running liveops on an online game (which meant rapid response whenever incidents happened, jumping into shells and constantly typing like my life depended on it), and developed fairly severe wrist problems within a couple months. To the point where I almost had to leave the job on disability, per my doctor's orders. On the recommendation of a friend, before taking that step I tried switching to a Kinesis Advantage for the better wrist alignment and less "hard" keystroke bottom as compared to the chiclets on the Apple keyboard. It was a bit of a learning curve (~2 weeks to get up to full typing speed when using it every day, a couple more to push past it), but at the end of it my wrists got better almost instantly, and I never had problems again. My typing speed went up as well. I'm not sure how much of that improvement is due to the better alignment of keys (there's almost no hand movement when typing, and your wrists are always neutral) and how much is due to the bigger key action and softer bottom, to be fair. Edit: it's worth mentioning that I'm also a boxer and a piano player, so my wrists take a lot of abuse on a regular basis. YMMV and if you're not having problems, I definitely found the Apple keyboards to be very easy and fast to use.

gh02t 9y ago
Ditto, after a bad strain injury on my wrist I bought a Kinesis. I don't think I could really use a computer without it. For me though it's mostly wrist angle; while I love the tactile mechanical switches I don't think the impact is a huge factor unless you are prone to pressing very hard on a scissor switch or a linear switch.
- digi_owl 9y ago
  I seem to recall the old IBM keyboard was designed it way it was to provide tactile and auditory feedback that the input had been registered before the key bottomed out. This to reduce long term strain injuries. After all, the primary use of a computer back then would be writing. Be it codes or reports.
Moru 9y ago

bitwize 9y ago

If you can't adjust to an Apple keyboard (and don't have RSI), the problem is you -- not the keyboard. Retrain yourself to type softly.

ionised 9y ago
Why?

Phrodo_00 9y ago

you don't need to bottom out regular mechanical keyboards, which means you're not constantly slamming your finger against a hard surface. You do need to bottom out scissor switches.