5 ms·

I wouldn't be surprised if the Apple keyboard is the fastest just because it has very shallow keys.

by Nition 9y ago

Heliosmaster 9y ago
They mentioned it being a likely culprit in the article :)
- Nition 9y ago
  Oops, yeah I just got to that part. My fault for not reading past the conclusion before posting. Still, I guess in a way, timing it from the start of a key press is the most real measure of actual latency when you want to press a key. It's just got nothing to do with the processor etc.
andyfleming 9y ago
That's fine though. It's about the experience end-to-end. I love the apple keyboards. I still type faster on them than other keyboards, including high-end mechanical keyboards. The short keys and actuation feel responsive, yet I've never felt like I've accidentally triggered a key.
- baxuz 9y ago
  I'm currently using a mechanical 60% keyboard with the following layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/c7f9f0ac904b211ff5861573267cecfe http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/c7f9f0ac904b21... Truth be told, I also prefer scissor switch keyboards, but there aren't any on the market that support the features I'd like: - configurable keys & layers on a hardware level - 60% layout - NKRO Apple's magic keyboard would be great if it supported configuration/NKRO and didn't cost so outrageously much.
  - hueving 9y ago
    Custom build at wasd keyboards work? I love that place.
    - daviddumenil 9y ago
      Alas, they don't offer scissor switches.
- cjbprime 9y ago
  Same -- I like doing speed typing on typeracer, and after going through mech keyboards and different switch types for a few years, I'm consistently fastest on a non-mechanical ThinkPad USB chiclet keyboard.
  - confounded 9y ago
    I've recently got rid of several extremely expensive mechanical keyboards to go back to a new ThinkPad chiclet. I am somewhat embarrassed to say it's been fantastic.
- bhj 9y ago
  Agreed, and I don't understand the hate many people (seem to) have for them - the most ergonomic keyboards are those that require the least amount of repetitive motion. Not that there isn't an adjustment period, but some seem to pull out their Jump To Conclusion mats a little early.
  - deathanatos 9y ago
    There's essentially no range of motion in a MBP keyboard anymore: there is no difference between not pressing the key, actuating the key, and bottoming out the key. Some people (such as yourself) seem to prefer it, but to me it feels much rougher than comparable keyboards, like typing on a hard plastic surface. There is no give or play in the keystroke. Compared to a Lenovo T460p's keyboard (the other machine I own), the Lenovo is a lot "softer" to type on. (And quieter, too.) Mostly, I dislike the feel. Now, my wrists also hurt. Now, when I'm not travelling, I was using an external Apple keyboard, not the MBP's primarily, so I'm hesitant to blame the MBP's keyboard directly. The external Apple keyboard has a greater keystroke distance from start to bottoming out, but still has like zero distance between actuation and bottoming out. (For some keystrokes, particularly ^+Tab and ^+Shift+Tab, I find it hard to keep control actuated, despite it being fully depressed; it just seems to require a lot of pressure to keep things in electrical contact). The pain in my wrists didn't start until I started using Apple keyboards, and has mostly stopped since I've replaced them. (I now primarily use an ErgoDox EZ, primarily for the split/ability to independently position my hands. I had tried, and had similar success w/ a Kinesis Freestyle, but I didn't own it.) (I used a MBP keyboard for ~4yrs, with an ergo keyboard of some kind for when I'm not travelling for ~half of that. I've used Thinkpad's of varying models for ~10 years. Now, I could just be getting old, but replacing the Apple keyboard is what made the difference thus far for me. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, admittedly: my wrists are, I feel, in the same bad position on the Lenovo as they are on the MBP/Apple keyboard.)
    - rconti 9y ago
      Because they're talking about USB keyboards they're probably talking about the chicklet Apple "Pro" USB keyboard, not the new MBP's built in keyboard. Which, I agree-- I've only typed on the actual laptop itself a handful of times, but man, those key movements are SHORT and I'm not sure I really like it. Time will tell, though -- I originally felt the same way about the chicklet keyboards i love now.
- krashidov 9y ago
  Agreed. When I first used them I hated them, now I can't really use anything else.
- ryandrake 9y ago
  That's fine, but then the study should be called Key Size Comparisons rather than Keyboard Latency, since it appears that the length of time the key takes to travel dominates the "latency" measurement.
  - comex 9y ago
    Key travel time is itself a form of latency, distinct from throughput because it doesn’t count the time you take to move your fingers between keys, because you can start pressing a one key while the previous key is on the way down (as long as it’s not the same key), etc. But even aside from that, if key travel time is the biggest contributor to a keyboard’s overall input latency, then that’s what it is. There’s no real way to avoid it (except maybe pressing the keys harder?), so it doesn’t make sense to exclude it just because it’s mechanical rather than electronic.
zitterbewegung 9y ago
This is anecdotal so YMMV. I have a Macbook Pro 2017 and the shallow key travel makes me feel like its more accurate than the one on my previous Macbook Pro 2015 with longer key travel. Also, I feel like I am typing faster.
marssaxman 9y ago
Sounds like a good argument for the superiority of shallow keys. I've always liked Apple keyboards - actually used their wired USB keyboard for a long time specifically because it felt like typing on a Powerbook.
- codemonkeymike 9y ago
  Superior is a strong word, if your preference is to bottom out flat keys then thats all well and good. I personally type like I am playing an instrument, pressing just enough to activate and then letting the key push my finger up. I find no enjoyment on typing on an apple keyboard, which I am now and it also causes me joint pain from all the constant bottoming out.
robotresearcher 9y ago
Quoth the fine article: > Contrast this to the Apple keyboard measured, where the key travel is so short that it can’t be captured with a 240 fps camera, indicating that the key travel time is < 4ms.
dvhh 9y ago
We need to request to include a test of on screen keyboard then
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Apple keyboard is the fastest just because it has very shallow keys.

by Nition 9y ago

I wouldn't be surprised if the Apple keyboard is the fastest just because it has very shallow keys.

Heliosmaster 9y ago

They mentioned it being a likely culprit in the article :)

Nition 9y ago
Oops, yeah I just got to that part. My fault for not reading past the conclusion before posting. Still, I guess in a way, timing it from the start of a key press is the most real measure of actual latency when you want to press a key. It's just got nothing to do with the processor etc.

andyfleming 9y ago

That's fine though. It's about the experience end-to-end. I love the apple keyboards. I still type faster on them than other keyboards, including high-end mechanical keyboards. The short keys and actuation feel responsive, yet I've never felt like I've accidentally triggered a key.

baxuz 9y ago
I'm currently using a mechanical 60% keyboard with the following layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/c7f9f0ac904b211ff5861573267cecfe http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/c7f9f0ac904b21... Truth be told, I also prefer scissor switch keyboards, but there aren't any on the market that support the features I'd like: - configurable keys & layers on a hardware level - 60% layout - NKRO Apple's magic keyboard would be great if it supported configuration/NKRO and didn't cost so outrageously much.
- hueving 9y ago
  Custom build at wasd keyboards work? I love that place.
  - daviddumenil 9y ago
    Alas, they don't offer scissor switches.
cjbprime 9y ago
Same -- I like doing speed typing on typeracer, and after going through mech keyboards and different switch types for a few years, I'm consistently fastest on a non-mechanical ThinkPad USB chiclet keyboard.
- confounded 9y ago
  I've recently got rid of several extremely expensive mechanical keyboards to go back to a new ThinkPad chiclet. I am somewhat embarrassed to say it's been fantastic.
bhj 9y ago
Agreed, and I don't understand the hate many people (seem to) have for them - the most ergonomic keyboards are those that require the least amount of repetitive motion. Not that there isn't an adjustment period, but some seem to pull out their Jump To Conclusion mats a little early.
- deathanatos 9y ago
  There's essentially no range of motion in a MBP keyboard anymore: there is no difference between not pressing the key, actuating the key, and bottoming out the key. Some people (such as yourself) seem to prefer it, but to me it feels much rougher than comparable keyboards, like typing on a hard plastic surface. There is no give or play in the keystroke. Compared to a Lenovo T460p's keyboard (the other machine I own), the Lenovo is a lot "softer" to type on. (And quieter, too.) Mostly, I dislike the feel. Now, my wrists also hurt. Now, when I'm not travelling, I was using an external Apple keyboard, not the MBP's primarily, so I'm hesitant to blame the MBP's keyboard directly. The external Apple keyboard has a greater keystroke distance from start to bottoming out, but still has like zero distance between actuation and bottoming out. (For some keystrokes, particularly ^+Tab and ^+Shift+Tab, I find it hard to keep control actuated, despite it being fully depressed; it just seems to require a lot of pressure to keep things in electrical contact). The pain in my wrists didn't start until I started using Apple keyboards, and has mostly stopped since I've replaced them. (I now primarily use an ErgoDox EZ, primarily for the split/ability to independently position my hands. I had tried, and had similar success w/ a Kinesis Freestyle, but I didn't own it.) (I used a MBP keyboard for ~4yrs, with an ergo keyboard of some kind for when I'm not travelling for ~half of that. I've used Thinkpad's of varying models for ~10 years. Now, I could just be getting old, but replacing the Apple keyboard is what made the difference thus far for me. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, admittedly: my wrists are, I feel, in the same bad position on the Lenovo as they are on the MBP/Apple keyboard.)
  - rconti 9y ago
    Because they're talking about USB keyboards they're probably talking about the chicklet Apple "Pro" USB keyboard, not the new MBP's built in keyboard. Which, I agree-- I've only typed on the actual laptop itself a handful of times, but man, those key movements are SHORT and I'm not sure I really like it. Time will tell, though -- I originally felt the same way about the chicklet keyboards i love now.
krashidov 9y ago
Agreed. When I first used them I hated them, now I can't really use anything else.
ryandrake 9y ago
That's fine, but then the study should be called Key Size Comparisons rather than Keyboard Latency, since it appears that the length of time the key takes to travel dominates the "latency" measurement.
- comex 9y ago
  Key travel time is itself a form of latency, distinct from throughput because it doesn’t count the time you take to move your fingers between keys, because you can start pressing a one key while the previous key is on the way down (as long as it’s not the same key), etc. But even aside from that, if key travel time is the biggest contributor to a keyboard’s overall input latency, then that’s what it is. There’s no real way to avoid it (except maybe pressing the keys harder?), so it doesn’t make sense to exclude it just because it’s mechanical rather than electronic.

zitterbewegung 9y ago

This is anecdotal so YMMV. I have a Macbook Pro 2017 and the shallow key travel makes me feel like its more accurate than the one on my previous Macbook Pro 2015 with longer key travel. Also, I feel like I am typing faster.

marssaxman 9y ago

Sounds like a good argument for the superiority of shallow keys. I've always liked Apple keyboards - actually used their wired USB keyboard for a long time specifically because it felt like typing on a Powerbook.

codemonkeymike 9y ago
Superior is a strong word, if your preference is to bottom out flat keys then thats all well and good. I personally type like I am playing an instrument, pressing just enough to activate and then letting the key push my finger up. I find no enjoyment on typing on an apple keyboard, which I am now and it also causes me joint pain from all the constant bottoming out.

robotresearcher 9y ago

Quoth the fine article: > Contrast this to the Apple keyboard measured, where the key travel is so short that it can’t be captured with a 240 fps camera, indicating that the key travel time is < 4ms.

dvhh 9y ago

We need to request to include a test of on screen keyboard then

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]