5 ms·

I agree. Presumably he measured it the way he did because it's easier to measure, rather than because he thinks it's the more meaningful way. (Though maybe hi

I agree. Presumably he measured it the way he did because it's easier to measure, rather than because he thinks it's the more meaningful way. (Though maybe his way is more useful if he's interested in whether a keyboard gives an advantage in gaming, rather than whether it's pleasant to type with.)

LoSboccacc 9y ago
the article specifically states the reasons for why he messured the whole travel, no guesswork needed > This is because, as a human, you don’t activate the switch, you press the key. A measurement that starts from switch activiation time misses this large component to latency.
- mjw1007 9y ago
  That's effectively providing a definition of the latency he's discussing, not an explanation of why that's the sort of latency he finds interesting. But I see he does goes on to say that he cares about game performance, rather than typing experience: « If, for example, you’re playing a game and start dodging when you see something happen, you have pay the cost of the key movement, which is different for different keyboards. » For me, I don't care about the time after switch activation, rather about time after the tactile feedback (the "click"). Ideally the character would appear on the screen at the same time as the click; not after, and not before. If a keyboard can 'cheat' and activate the switch before that and hide some latency, that's fine by me.
  - dom0 9y ago
    Seasoned gamers preload keys they are anticipating to use. On my keyboard I have less than a millimeter of travel from the preloaded point I use (which is right in front of the tactile bump and is quickly trained) to actuation. In tacticale switches the bump and the making of the contact are mechanically connected. Using the moment of finger/key contact quite obviously selects for travel, among other things.
    - jetpacktuxedo 9y ago
      >In tacticale switches the bump and the making of the contact are mechanically connected. Nope! This is rarely (if ever?) the case. In alps switches, for example, there are two totally separate leafs, one of which handles the tactile feeling and the other of which is responsible for the actual actuation. If you browse through Haata's Plotly[1] you can see that many switches actuate well after the tactile bump. Though they are often pretty closely related in terms of their depth in the keypress, they are wholly unrelated from one another mechanically. [1] https://plot.ly/~haata https://plot.ly/~haata
      - dom0 9y ago
        > Nope! This is rarely (if ever?) the case. Cherry MX.
        jetpacktuxedo 9y ago
        False. You can bend the leaf of a cherry MX switch into all sorts of wild shapes to move the tactile event up and down the press, but the actuation will stay in largely the same place. If you browse the force curves from the link I posted above, you can see that some switches (cherry MX Brown, for example) actuate well after the tactile event. The tactile event on a Cherry MX Brown is ~1mm into the travel distance, and the actual actuation is ~2mm in. Kaihua Box Orange switches (still an MX-style switch) is an even better example of that. Kaihua Speed Bronze has the actuation point inside of the tactile bump instead of after the bump. I can't find any examples of switches that actuate _before_ the tactile bump (mostly because why would anyone design that?), but tactility and actuation are not inherently tied together in cherry MX switches, either. They are both handled by a two-part leaf, which you can sort of see in some of the pictures on Deskthority[1]. There are two legs on the slider that have a surface to them that determines the tactility (or lack thereof in the case of linear switches) that slide linearly up and down the top leaf, which flexes it until it makes contact with the bottom leaf. That contact causes the actuation. All of the tactility is determined bu the shape of the slider legs. [1] https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX#Construction https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX#Construction
- sundvor 9y ago
  If you game on a mechanical keyboard, you've pretty much worked out exactly where the switch points are and will be working the keys in a fashion different to normal typing. So I'm not quite buying the way the measurements were made vs the purpose of the tests.
  - Splines 9y ago
    Do you really press every possible key down almost to the switch point, and then when you want to actuate the key, press it a tiny bit further? I would guess (and maybe I'm wrong about this) that you rest your fingers on the keycaps, and press them in as far as needed to actuate, but no further. The key still needs to travel.
    - sundvor 9y ago
      I'm using Romer Gs now (G910 at home for a while, and recently the G413 at work), making the switch from MX Browns as I found them too heavy (programming RSI). Not sure how much I press them down (will try to analyse at next opportunity), but whenever I play a FPS (which is admittedly nowhere as often as I'd like these days) I certainly "preload" the fingers on the WASD keys in such a manner that the press is far quicker than when I touch type. Precision and responsiveness is far better than using a chiclet type keyboard such as the MS Sculpt, which compares a bit to the Apple Macbook keyboards from memory (although the new Macbook Pro has even shorter travel again). The Sculpt (or MBP) has much shorter overall travel compared to the Romers, but the feel of when you are off/on really doesn't compare; the keys feel dead in comparison for gaming. YMMV.
ehsankia 9y ago
If you want a clear point, then why not use the moment it bottoms out. So when key travel ends, instead of when key travel starts. In most cases, it'll be much closer to the actual activation. If you want to be even more thorough, publish both times (which you can get from a single video).
- jetpacktuxedo 9y ago
  For long enough key travel times that could actually show a negative latency, which might be super weird.
zokier 9y ago
Probably the easiest way to measure exactly the processing/scan latency would be to swap a key with a low-latency relay.

LoSboccacc 9y ago

the article specifically states the reasons for why he messured the whole travel, no guesswork needed > This is because, as a human, you don’t activate the switch, you press the key. A measurement that starts from switch activiation time misses this large component to latency.

mjw1007 9y ago
That's effectively providing a definition of the latency he's discussing, not an explanation of why that's the sort of latency he finds interesting. But I see he does goes on to say that he cares about game performance, rather than typing experience: « If, for example, you’re playing a game and start dodging when you see something happen, you have pay the cost of the key movement, which is different for different keyboards. » For me, I don't care about the time after switch activation, rather about time after the tactile feedback (the "click"). Ideally the character would appear on the screen at the same time as the click; not after, and not before. If a keyboard can 'cheat' and activate the switch before that and hide some latency, that's fine by me.
- dom0 9y ago
  Seasoned gamers preload keys they are anticipating to use. On my keyboard I have less than a millimeter of travel from the preloaded point I use (which is right in front of the tactile bump and is quickly trained) to actuation. In tacticale switches the bump and the making of the contact are mechanically connected. Using the moment of finger/key contact quite obviously selects for travel, among other things.
  - jetpacktuxedo 9y ago
    >In tacticale switches the bump and the making of the contact are mechanically connected. Nope! This is rarely (if ever?) the case. In alps switches, for example, there are two totally separate leafs, one of which handles the tactile feeling and the other of which is responsible for the actual actuation. If you browse through Haata's Plotly[1] you can see that many switches actuate well after the tactile bump. Though they are often pretty closely related in terms of their depth in the keypress, they are wholly unrelated from one another mechanically. [1] https://plot.ly/~haata https://plot.ly/~haata
    - dom0 9y ago
      > Nope! This is rarely (if ever?) the case. Cherry MX.
      - jetpacktuxedo 9y ago
        False. You can bend the leaf of a cherry MX switch into all sorts of wild shapes to move the tactile event up and down the press, but the actuation will stay in largely the same place. If you browse the force curves from the link I posted above, you can see that some switches (cherry MX Brown, for example) actuate well after the tactile event. The tactile event on a Cherry MX Brown is ~1mm into the travel distance, and the actual actuation is ~2mm in. Kaihua Box Orange switches (still an MX-style switch) is an even better example of that. Kaihua Speed Bronze has the actuation point inside of the tactile bump instead of after the bump. I can't find any examples of switches that actuate _before_ the tactile bump (mostly because why would anyone design that?), but tactility and actuation are not inherently tied together in cherry MX switches, either. They are both handled by a two-part leaf, which you can sort of see in some of the pictures on Deskthority[1]. There are two legs on the slider that have a surface to them that determines the tactility (or lack thereof in the case of linear switches) that slide linearly up and down the top leaf, which flexes it until it makes contact with the bottom leaf. That contact causes the actuation. All of the tactility is determined bu the shape of the slider legs. [1] https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX#Construction https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX#Construction
sundvor 9y ago
If you game on a mechanical keyboard, you've pretty much worked out exactly where the switch points are and will be working the keys in a fashion different to normal typing. So I'm not quite buying the way the measurements were made vs the purpose of the tests.
- Splines 9y ago
  Do you really press every possible key down almost to the switch point, and then when you want to actuate the key, press it a tiny bit further? I would guess (and maybe I'm wrong about this) that you rest your fingers on the keycaps, and press them in as far as needed to actuate, but no further. The key still needs to travel.
  - sundvor 9y ago
    I'm using Romer Gs now (G910 at home for a while, and recently the G413 at work), making the switch from MX Browns as I found them too heavy (programming RSI). Not sure how much I press them down (will try to analyse at next opportunity), but whenever I play a FPS (which is admittedly nowhere as often as I'd like these days) I certainly "preload" the fingers on the WASD keys in such a manner that the press is far quicker than when I touch type. Precision and responsiveness is far better than using a chiclet type keyboard such as the MS Sculpt, which compares a bit to the Apple Macbook keyboards from memory (although the new Macbook Pro has even shorter travel again). The Sculpt (or MBP) has much shorter overall travel compared to the Romers, but the feel of when you are off/on really doesn't compare; the keys feel dead in comparison for gaming. YMMV.

ehsankia 9y ago

If you want a clear point, then why not use the moment it bottoms out. So when key travel ends, instead of when key travel starts. In most cases, it'll be much closer to the actual activation. If you want to be even more thorough, publish both times (which you can get from a single video).

jetpacktuxedo 9y ago
For long enough key travel times that could actually show a negative latency, which might be super weird.

zokier 9y ago

Probably the easiest way to measure exactly the processing/scan latency would be to swap a key with a low-latency relay.