8 ms·
IMO, a better measure would be from activation of the switch, as opposed to the beginning of key travel. I don't start waiting for the character to appear on my
by korethr 9y ago
IMO, a better measure would be from activation of the switch, as opposed to the beginning of key travel. I don't start waiting for the character to appear on my screen from the moment I begin to press down. My anticipation begins when I feel the tactile feedback of the switch activating (or the switch bottoming out on switches that don't offer tactile feedback). On a keyboard with good tactile feedback, I might not move the switch through it's full travel -- just a little bit above and below the activation and reset points.
- baxuz 9y agoA weird result with the Das 3 keyboard (25ms) considering it uses a cherry MX switch, same as the Kinesis (55ms). The OLKB and Ergodox don't state the switches used, but it's almost certainly a cherry MX style switch with non-modified actuation points compared to the original.
- pokemongoaway 9y agoWould also like to know more about this since I want the best performance from my Kinesis :)
- mjw1007 9y agoI agree. Presumably he measured it the way he did because it's easier to measure, rather than because he thinks it's the more meaningful way. (Though maybe his way is more useful if he's interested in whether a keyboard gives an advantage in gaming, rather than whether it's pleasant to type with.)
- LoSboccacc 9y agothe article specifically states the reasons for why he messured the whole travel, no guesswork needed > This is because, as a human, you don’t activate the switch, you press the key. A measurement that starts from switch activiation time misses this large component to latency.
- mjw1007 9y agoThat's effectively providing a definition of the latency he's discussing, not an explanation of why that's the sort of latency he finds interesting. But I see he does goes on to say that he cares about game performance, rather than typing experience: « If, for example, you’re playing a game and start dodging when you see something happen, you have pay the cost of the key movement, which is different for different keyboards. » For me, I don't care about the time after switch activation, rather about time after the tactile feedback (the "click"). Ideally the character would appear on the screen at the same time as the click; not after, and not before. If a keyboard can 'cheat' and activate the switch before that and hide some latency, that's fine by me.
- dom0 9y agoSeasoned gamers preload keys they are anticipating to use. On my keyboard I have less than a millimeter of travel from the preloaded point I use (which is right in front of the tactile bump and is quickly trained) to actuation. In tacticale switches the bump and the making of the contact are mechanically connected. Using the moment of finger/key contact quite obviously selects for travel, among other things.
- jetpacktuxedo 9y ago>In tacticale switches the bump and the making of the contact are mechanically connected. Nope! This is rarely (if ever?) the case. In alps switches, for example, there are two totally separate leafs, one of which handles the tactile feeling and the other of which is responsible for the actual actuation. If you browse through Haata's Plotly[1] you can see that many switches actuate well after the tactile bump. Though they are often pretty closely related in terms of their depth in the keypress, they are wholly unrelated from one another mechanically. [1] https://plot.ly/~haata https://plot.ly/~haata
- dom0 9y ago> Nope! This is rarely (if ever?) the case. Cherry MX.
- ehsankia 9y agoIf you want a clear point, then why not use the moment it bottoms out. So when key travel ends, instead of when key travel starts. In most cases, it'll be much closer to the actual activation. If you want to be even more thorough, publish both times (which you can get from a single video).
- jetpacktuxedo 9y agoFor long enough key travel times that could actually show a negative latency, which might be super weird.
- zokier 9y agoProbably the easiest way to measure exactly the processing/scan latency would be to swap a key with a low-latency relay.
- Nition 9y agoI wouldn't be surprised if the Apple keyboard is the fastest just because it has very shallow keys.
- Heliosmaster 9y agoThey mentioned it being a likely culprit in the article :)
- Nition 9y agoOops, yeah I just got to that part. My fault for not reading past the conclusion before posting. Still, I guess in a way, timing it from the start of a key press is the most real measure of actual latency when you want to press a key. It's just got nothing to do with the processor etc.
- andyfleming 9y agoThat's fine though. It's about the experience end-to-end. I love the apple keyboards. I still type faster on them than other keyboards, including high-end mechanical keyboards. The short keys and actuation feel responsive, yet I've never felt like I've accidentally triggered a key.
- baxuz 9y agoI'm currently using a mechanical 60% keyboard with the following layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/c7f9f0ac904b211ff5861573267cecfe http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/c7f9f0ac904b21... Truth be told, I also prefer scissor switch keyboards, but there aren't any on the market that support the features I'd like: - configurable keys & layers on a hardware level - 60% layout - NKRO Apple's magic keyboard would be great if it supported configuration/NKRO and didn't cost so outrageously much.
- hueving 9y agoCustom build at wasd keyboards work? I love that place.
- bastijn 9y agoDidn’t watch good enough. There are mechanical keyboards in the review as mentioned below. My bad. Original comment below for future reference. —- original comment —- True gaming keyboards have mechanical switches which activate on first key press, not on full key down. Bit disappointed no mechanical keyboard was tested as they are perceived to be the ultimate keyboards when speed matters.
- dom0 9y ago> which activate on first key press No, mechanical keys have some travel before actuation as well.
- mhweaver 9y agoI see several mechanical keyboards in the list (das, ergodox, kinesis advantage, olkb planck, possibly others)
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- eikenberry 9y agoMechanical key switching activate differently based on the switch. Most with feedback activate on the feedback, ie. when you hear/feel the click. So it isn't first press or full key down, but somewhere in the middle.
- vith 9y agoThe most common key switch for gaming oriented mechanical keyboards is probably the Cherry MX Red. Its actuation point is around 50% of the way through the key travel. Buckling spring switches, membrane domes, topre (membrane dome + spring), etc. all have actuation points somewhere in the middle of the key travel, not at the start or end.
- DeepYogurt 9y agoFurther those gaming keyboards have longer than normal key travel.
- ehsankia 9y agoActual activation might be hard to get, but when the key bottoms out is probably the best way to go. Or even better, why not post both when key travel starts and when it ends. If people are really curious, they can model a linear scale and use the key response plot to guess exactly where the activation happens.
- joebadmo 9y ago> when the key bottoms out is probably the best way to go I disagree. One of the greatest benefits of mechanical keyboards is that they actuate before bottoming out. With some practice you can learn to type without bottoming out, which can greatly increase your typing speed, and decrease the amount of stress on your fingers and wrists.
- ehsankia 9y agoSure, but the start and end value are the easiest ones to measure. As I alluded to, once you have the two extremes, you can the activation plot [1] to get the exact activation time. For the case of Cherry MX Blue, it would be at 62.5% between the start and end. [1] https://i.stack.imgur.com/GzswL.png https://i.stack.imgur.com/GzswL.png
- xbkingx 9y agoI immediately switched to skeptic mode when I saw no actuation points or normalization for travel distance. All this is showing is that to move further it takes longer. Duh. Why even bother pointing out the polling rate? That's like setting up runners at random places on the racetrack to measure who's faster. The guy/gal that starts closest to the finish line isn't necessarily faster. I'm using Cherry MX Speed switches, which have a 1.2 mm actuation point and 45 g actuation force. There are no published numbers for the Apple keyboards and the closest I could find was ~0.75 mm distance and ~60 g force. Cherry MX Reds, the most common mechanical switches, have a 2 mm distance and 45 g force. (I mention the actuation force because there is probably a slightly longer delay for higher actuation forces due to deforming the fingertip and motor unit recruitment, both of which are probably minimal.) On top of it, the author seems to be making a statement about speed being the deciding factor for gaming keyboards. If that was the case, they'd all be using ultra-low actuation switches, which they aren't. In most cases, a 'gaming keyboard' is just a mechanical keyboard with aggressive styling, higher quality components (less plastic, braided cable), macro keys, multi-key rollover, USB or audio passthrough, and backlighting. Then he uses 1 membrane gaming keyboard and 1 no name import that I can't even find the manufacturer for as his only gaming keyboards. There are no sample sizes reported, he just does his best to hit two keys at once, and uses a camera for determining when the key press starts. Every step of the process has huge flaws and he doesn't even use a reasonable set of devices. Sorry to sound harsh, but I trust zero of the conclusions/interpretations of the data.
- stefco_ 9y ago> I immediately switched to skeptic mode when I saw no actuation points or normalization for travel distance. All this is showing is that to move further it takes longer. I thought his explanation (that delay from the start of the motion) was a good one. Unless someone is starting with a key partially depressed/near the actuation point (which you certainly could do), the key travel time is going to be a part of the perceived delay. Seems fair to me, given that delay and perception are the point of the post. Now, if you think that gamers are starting with partially-depressed keys and therefore will actually experience less of a keystroke delay, that would be a valid counterargument. > Every step of the process has huge flaws and he doesn't even use a reasonable set of devices. I don't think this is being portrayed as an especially accurate study; the author includes plenty of caveats.
- nobrains 9y agoWhy don't we have keys that click immediately and then travel down after the click?
- GuB-42 9y agoYour point is addressed in the appendix. > Note that, unlike the other measurement I was able to find online, this measurement was from the start of the keypress instead of the switch activation. This is because, as a human, you don’t activate the switch, you press the key. He mentions the fact that some keys activate mid-travel, and that the very short travel is part of what makes the Apple keyboard so fast.