4 ms·

which begs the question, will self driving cars be coded to break the law, specifically speed limits. How do we accommodate that into regulations governing thei

which begs the question, will self driving cars be coded to break the law, specifically speed limits. How do we accommodate that into regulations governing their use. We have a hard law that states, speed limit. Yet "everyone" knows otherwise. I am curious how we sort this out. Will roads become stricter with cars self enforcing the limits? How do self driving cars know who is next at a four way stop?

toast0 9y ago
> We have a hard law that states, speed limit. There is not a hard law that states speed limit at least in California; instead the law sets 'reasonable and prudent' as the limit, and that lawfully set and posted or legislated limits set forth evidence of what is reasonable and prudent. Driving over 100 mph is separately off limits, however. (I would rarely find that speed to be reasonable or prudent!). A self-driving vehicle would likely be recording evidence of conditions which could show that the speed was reasonable and prudent given the conditions, which include other traffic on the road. The basic California speed law is: > 22350. No person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather, visibility, the traffic on, and the surface and width of, the highway, and in no event at a speed which endangers the safety of persons or property. It is furthered by: > 22351. (b) The speed of any vehicle upon a highway in excess of the prima facie speed limits in Section 22352 or established as authorized in this code is prima facie unlawful unless the defendant establishes by competent evidence that the speed in excess of said limits did not constitute a violation of the basic speed law at the time, place and under the conditions then existing. Additionally section 22348 describes a specific additional infraction for driving at a speed greater than 100 miles per hour.
- fishcolorbrick 9y ago
  I really wouldn't want to program a car that obeys speed limits in 49 states, and in one state "record[s] evidence of conditions which could show that the speed was reasonable and prudent given the conditions" From an implementation perspective that sounds like a lot of overhead just to let Californians drive fast.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    Autonomous cars will need to be able to determine a safe and prudent speed in every state. I'm pretty sure every state has laws saying that speeds must be lower that the limit in bad conditions, and even if they don't, the car will have to do this just for basic safety. It shouldn't need any special casing for California.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    About a quarter of US jurisdictions follow the same basic rule as California, where exceeding a posted speed limit is prima facie, but rebuttable, evidence of a violation. So it's not a 49/1 rule. And, in any case, 100% of US jurisdictions prohibit driving at a speed above the safe and reasonable speed if that is lower than the posted and/or statutory limit, so you need to be able to determine what is safe for conditions anyway; it's just a minority of states where that is a relevant determination when the results are above the posted limit.
  - Spivak 9y ago
    You have it backwards. Everyone is going to drive fast regardless of the law. Cali is just a state that recognizes this. Writing the law for humans should be celebrated. You can either take that into account or you close your eyes and plug your ears to reality and release a shitty autonomous car.
  - toast0 9y ago
    You may be underestimating the market of Californians who want to drive fast. For a long time, to sell a car in California at all, you had to put a special emissions package together, with was a lot of overhead, but manufacturers still did it, because losing the California market to save overhead doesn't make sense when selling cars.
- subhobroto 9y ago
  The rest of your statements are pretty well founded but > There is not a hard law that states speed limit at least in California Incorrect. I don't know what you mean by "a hard law", but, in California, there is a section, from the very statues you present, that sets a statutory maximum limit. The complication, being that there are three maximum speed limits in California: 55mph, 65mph and 70mph, depending on the scenario. CVC §22349 sets a maximum speed limit of 65 mph throughout the state (except for the 70 mph limit on some freeways). CVC§22349(a) reads: Except as provided in Section 22356 [70 mph on some freeways], no person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than 65 miles per hour. The CVC§ 22356 referred to above allows a 70 mph speed limit if justified by an engineering and traffic survey where a 65 mph limit would otherwise be applicable. Try arguing the 22350 while you have been cited the §22349 on a ticket. Not going to fly regardless of what one might read on websites online.

toast0 9y ago

> We have a hard law that states, speed limit. There is not a hard law that states speed limit at least in California; instead the law sets 'reasonable and prudent' as the limit, and that lawfully set and posted or legislated limits set forth evidence of what is reasonable and prudent. Driving over 100 mph is separately off limits, however. (I would rarely find that speed to be reasonable or prudent!). A self-driving vehicle would likely be recording evidence of conditions which could show that the speed was reasonable and prudent given the conditions, which include other traffic on the road. The basic California speed law is: > 22350. No person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather, visibility, the traffic on, and the surface and width of, the highway, and in no event at a speed which endangers the safety of persons or property. It is furthered by: > 22351. (b) The speed of any vehicle upon a highway in excess of the prima facie speed limits in Section 22352 or established as authorized in this code is prima facie unlawful unless the defendant establishes by competent evidence that the speed in excess of said limits did not constitute a violation of the basic speed law at the time, place and under the conditions then existing. Additionally section 22348 describes a specific additional infraction for driving at a speed greater than 100 miles per hour.

fishcolorbrick 9y ago
I really wouldn't want to program a car that obeys speed limits in 49 states, and in one state "record[s] evidence of conditions which could show that the speed was reasonable and prudent given the conditions" From an implementation perspective that sounds like a lot of overhead just to let Californians drive fast.
- mikeash 9y ago
  Autonomous cars will need to be able to determine a safe and prudent speed in every state. I'm pretty sure every state has laws saying that speeds must be lower that the limit in bad conditions, and even if they don't, the car will have to do this just for basic safety. It shouldn't need any special casing for California.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  About a quarter of US jurisdictions follow the same basic rule as California, where exceeding a posted speed limit is prima facie, but rebuttable, evidence of a violation. So it's not a 49/1 rule. And, in any case, 100% of US jurisdictions prohibit driving at a speed above the safe and reasonable speed if that is lower than the posted and/or statutory limit, so you need to be able to determine what is safe for conditions anyway; it's just a minority of states where that is a relevant determination when the results are above the posted limit.
- Spivak 9y ago
  You have it backwards. Everyone is going to drive fast regardless of the law. Cali is just a state that recognizes this. Writing the law for humans should be celebrated. You can either take that into account or you close your eyes and plug your ears to reality and release a shitty autonomous car.
- toast0 9y ago
  You may be underestimating the market of Californians who want to drive fast. For a long time, to sell a car in California at all, you had to put a special emissions package together, with was a lot of overhead, but manufacturers still did it, because losing the California market to save overhead doesn't make sense when selling cars.
subhobroto 9y ago
The rest of your statements are pretty well founded but > There is not a hard law that states speed limit at least in California Incorrect. I don't know what you mean by "a hard law", but, in California, there is a section, from the very statues you present, that sets a statutory maximum limit. The complication, being that there are three maximum speed limits in California: 55mph, 65mph and 70mph, depending on the scenario. CVC §22349 sets a maximum speed limit of 65 mph throughout the state (except for the 70 mph limit on some freeways). CVC§22349(a) reads: Except as provided in Section 22356 [70 mph on some freeways], no person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than 65 miles per hour. The CVC§ 22356 referred to above allows a 70 mph speed limit if justified by an engineering and traffic survey where a 65 mph limit would otherwise be applicable. Try arguing the 22350 while you have been cited the §22349 on a ticket. Not going to fly regardless of what one might read on websites online.