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>- civil asset forfeiture; How would cryptocurrencies prevent the police from seizing your private keys? They can already throw you in jail if you refuse to p

>- civil asset forfeiture; How would cryptocurrencies prevent the police from seizing your private keys? They can already throw you in jail if you refuse to provide passwords, or the keys themselves.

Spivak 9y ago
Current situation: Government takes your money and you must sue to get it back. Crypto: Government is incapable of taking your money and must prosecute in order to coerce you to turn it over. And you could still refuse and accept your jail time. Edit: People replying to me are missing the point. This is about the case where the government is wrongfully taking your money. Under the current system your money can be seized without your knowledge and you have to prove it was taken wrongfully after the fact. With crypto the burden is shifted to the government who has to prove they have the right to seize it in the first place.
- pja 9y ago
  And you could still refuse and accept your jail time. In most jurisdictions (including the US) the sanction for contempt of court is potentially unlimited: the convicted individual may find that they are only freed when they comply with the court’s requirements. IOW, good luck with that.
  - rphlx 9y ago
    My understanding is that in general under current law a US citizen cannot be held in contempt or put in prison indefinitely for failing to disclose a password. The 5th ammendment protection there is not entirely void, but it can be void under certain specific circumstances (such as the "foregone conclusion doctrine", where LE can prove that specific illicit content both exists, and can be decrypted, by the accused).
    - pja 9y ago
      Refusing to provide the password to a BitCoin wallet found on a computer you own is probably going to fall under that particular doctrine. I look forward to the first test case...
- Laforet 9y ago
  Civil forfeiture is not limited to cash money. Your lambo car, mansion house or any other property could be seized just as easily under the current regime. In case of crypto, the storage media containing the private keys could be seized. Failing that, the government can always obtain an injunction to blacklist your addresses to exchanges, nodes and miners as long as those operate within their jurisdiction. You could use a brain wallet to mitigate these risks to some extent, but I doubt it is possible to put all your assets in one place and you expose yourself to the risk of cryptanalysis by torture.
  - jameskegel 9y ago
    These days, most of us use an exceedingly long 25 word mnemonic key; also, look into actually fungible currencies like Monero, where transactions are private by default, with the option to decrypt them for a regulatory body.
    - Laforet 9y ago
      The mnemonic phrase is a representation of the private key, so the same limitation applies. I really like XMR but converting your money to XMR would still leave a paper trail.
- acdha 9y ago
  That assumes that you have perfect key management. Looking at current cases about phone & other device searches suggest that most people would be compromised. This also forces other issues: e.g. offline wallets are a standard answer to security concerns but those are more vulnerable to physical compromise. This scenario needs a lot more discussion of threat models.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  And then you get held in jail indefinitely. And they sold your shoes.

>- civil asset forfeiture; How would cryptocurrencies prevent the police from seizing your private keys? They can already throw you in jail if you refuse to provide passwords, or the keys themselves.

Spivak 9y ago

Current situation: Government takes your money and you must sue to get it back. Crypto: Government is incapable of taking your money and must prosecute in order to coerce you to turn it over. And you could still refuse and accept your jail time. Edit: People replying to me are missing the point. This is about the case where the government is wrongfully taking your money. Under the current system your money can be seized without your knowledge and you have to prove it was taken wrongfully after the fact. With crypto the burden is shifted to the government who has to prove they have the right to seize it in the first place.

pja 9y ago
And you could still refuse and accept your jail time. In most jurisdictions (including the US) the sanction for contempt of court is potentially unlimited: the convicted individual may find that they are only freed when they comply with the court’s requirements. IOW, good luck with that.
- rphlx 9y ago
  My understanding is that in general under current law a US citizen cannot be held in contempt or put in prison indefinitely for failing to disclose a password. The 5th ammendment protection there is not entirely void, but it can be void under certain specific circumstances (such as the "foregone conclusion doctrine", where LE can prove that specific illicit content both exists, and can be decrypted, by the accused).
  - pja 9y ago
    Refusing to provide the password to a BitCoin wallet found on a computer you own is probably going to fall under that particular doctrine. I look forward to the first test case...
Laforet 9y ago
Civil forfeiture is not limited to cash money. Your lambo car, mansion house or any other property could be seized just as easily under the current regime. In case of crypto, the storage media containing the private keys could be seized. Failing that, the government can always obtain an injunction to blacklist your addresses to exchanges, nodes and miners as long as those operate within their jurisdiction. You could use a brain wallet to mitigate these risks to some extent, but I doubt it is possible to put all your assets in one place and you expose yourself to the risk of cryptanalysis by torture.
- jameskegel 9y ago
  These days, most of us use an exceedingly long 25 word mnemonic key; also, look into actually fungible currencies like Monero, where transactions are private by default, with the option to decrypt them for a regulatory body.
  - Laforet 9y ago
    The mnemonic phrase is a representation of the private key, so the same limitation applies. I really like XMR but converting your money to XMR would still leave a paper trail.
acdha 9y ago
That assumes that you have perfect key management. Looking at current cases about phone & other device searches suggest that most people would be compromised. This also forces other issues: e.g. offline wallets are a standard answer to security concerns but those are more vulnerable to physical compromise. This scenario needs a lot more discussion of threat models.
KirinDave 9y ago
And then you get held in jail indefinitely. And they sold your shoes.