8 ms·

Metrorail vs. Uber: Travel Time and Cost

50 points by wallflower 9y ago

kapauldo 9y ago
This is great. I wish there was consensus that data was the basis for opinions.
rayiner 9y ago
Modeling metro delay as 0 minutes is completely unrealistic. For example, the scheduled trip time from New Carrollton to Foggy Bottom (all on the Orange Line) is 36 minutes. In reality, it often runs well over 50 minutes.
tabeth 9y ago
This is not a fair comparison: 1.) The real cost for an Uber ride is opaque, at best. 2.) Unlike Uber, public transportation becomes exponentially better with infrastructure upgrades. These upgrades would cease (in both mind and in implementation) to exist with the proliferation of Uber and other "car sharing" rides. 3.) Road travel is more subsidized than rail, anecdotally. I hate to say I don't have hard data for this, but I'm pretty sure it's right (sure, there's a gas tax, however cars are subsidized both implicitly, with parking lots and real estate, and explicitly, with wars and other foreign policy to manipulate the price of gas).
- yardie 9y ago
  They have been planning to bring more light rail and more buses for decades. I’ll go with the solution that works today. When the transit authority and politicians get off their ass and install the lines we agreed and paid for then we can revisit the perfect hypothetical.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > Road travel is more subsidized than rail, anecdotally New York spends between $1.11 and $7.34 subsidizing each ride on our Subway or LIRR, respectively, [1]. Assuming 2 trips a day on each of a year's 260 workdays, that comes to $577 to $3,810 of subsidies per commuter per year. The article is from 2012, so we'll use BLS data [2] to adjust those figures to September 2017 dollars: $618 and $4,080, respectively. "The statewide average of highway spending per capita in 2009 was $233," [3] or $266 in September 2017 dollars. That said, this isn't a fair comparison since we aren't adjusting for usage. On the other hand, most of roads' wear and tear comes from trucks [3]. And New York taxes the hell out of trucks [4]. TL; DR Trains work, but in the United States we tend to treat them as jobs programs first and public infrastructure second. [1] http://www.wnyc.org/story/283927-mta-suburban-passengers-get-7-per-ride-subway-riders-a-buck/ http://www.wnyc.org/story/283927-mta-suburban-passengers-get... [2] https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm [3] http://facweb.knowlton.ohio-state.edu/pviton/courses2/crp776/776-roads-handout.pdf http://facweb.knowlton.ohio-state.edu/pviton/courses2/crp776... [4] https://www.tax.ny.gov/bus/hut/huidx.htm https://www.tax.ny.gov/bus/hut/huidx.htm
  - kalleboo 9y ago
    You're comparing different values here - subsidies per commuter vs subsidies per capita. To be fair you should recalculate the road spending to be paid only by those who use it for commuting. Not to mention that number only includes highway spending and not regular roads.
  - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
    In NYC, the cost of the land area that roads take up is far more significant than the cost of the actual road itself.
  - lazerpants 9y ago
    I would like to add a couple of points of clarification to your comment: 1. Subway rides for most commuters are money-makers for the MTA, it's rides late at night or at the ends of lines that lose money (full trains are obviously more cost effective). I suspect LIRR costs work out similarly though I have not seen enough of their data to know. 2. The NYC bus system is massively subsidized. The subway could operate (less frequently, and to fewer places) and make a profit, the bus system could not. I can probably find my old sources for that if anyone is terribly interested.
- timthelion 9y ago
  Cars are mostly subsidized by way of devoting the majority of publicly owned land to roads. If the government were to auction off the land under every street and highway, that would pay off the national debt in no time.
  - V-2 9y ago
    Just because I don't have a car doesn't mean I don't use roads (eg. as of now, the groceries I buy weren't delivered to the store by drones)
    - timthelion 9y ago
      That doesn't change the fact that the cars and trucks that drive on them are subsidized. What if those goods were delivered by train?
yardie 9y ago
Just to note. In DC the train system is called the metro. Metrorail is the name for the miami transit train system. The author uses metro, metro train, and metrorail interchangeably. Left me slightly confused as if they were comparing DC to Miami.
- cmsmith 9y ago
  In DC, the mass transit agency is usually referred to as Metro, and offers two main services - Metrorail and Metrobus.
  - yardie 9y ago
    I’ve only referred to the train as the metro and the buses as the bus. I’ve only seen in one city the locals refer to the train as the metrorail. And that was Miami.
    - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
      In colloquial use, you are right, but in written media I see references to DC Metrorail all the time.
bkohlmann 9y ago
Very useful. My experience, however, is that unless you live or are going to an event/work at a metro station, the "last mile" benefit of ride sharing tips the scales towards road travel in most instances.
dwills1 9y ago
Just like with Internet service, the real cost (time) is in the last mile, as bkohlmann refers to. Uber picks you up at your door. Did the study figure the average walking time to a Metro station into their statistics for random addresses? I doubt it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statist...
- icebraining 9y ago
  If you look closely, you'll see they did: "A trip from Metro Center to Bethesda, for instance, takes 33 minutes, and that includes time to wait for the train and walk to and from the station."
muglug 9y ago
Where cost = financial cost to the end user, not the cost to society when private corporations suck revenue out of public transportation systems for short-term market gain.
- dogruck 9y ago
  I agree with your first statement, but not the followip. Public transportation systems are woefully inefficient. If we made them operate more like private corporations, I would agree more.
  - chipperyman573 9y ago
    >If we made them operate more like private corporations, I would agree more What specifically would you change to make them operate more like private corporations, and how would it help?
    - chrischen 9y ago
      The tokyo system seems to be a fairly efficient mix of public and private metros and train lines.
      - icebraining 9y ago
        Are the private metro and train lines more efficient than the public ones?
        chrischen 9y ago
        Not really. There's a lot of interoperability involved (all transit systems can use each other's IC card and you can charge it at any company's terminals). The IC card can also be used at most merchants.
      - lmm 9y ago
        The tokyo system isn't really subject to market competition, because employers pay for employees' tickets.

50 points by wallflower 9y ago

This is great. I wish there was consensus that data was the basis for opinions.

Modeling metro delay as 0 minutes is completely unrealistic. For example, the scheduled trip time from New Carrollton to Foggy Bottom (all on the Orange Line) is 36 minutes. In reality, it often runs well over 50 minutes.

tabeth 9y ago

This is not a fair comparison: 1.) The real cost for an Uber ride is opaque, at best. 2.) Unlike Uber, public transportation becomes exponentially better with infrastructure upgrades. These upgrades would cease (in both mind and in implementation) to exist with the proliferation of Uber and other "car sharing" rides. 3.) Road travel is more subsidized than rail, anecdotally. I hate to say I don't have hard data for this, but I'm pretty sure it's right (sure, there's a gas tax, however cars are subsidized both implicitly, with parking lots and real estate, and explicitly, with wars and other foreign policy to manipulate the price of gas).

yardie 9y ago
They have been planning to bring more light rail and more buses for decades. I’ll go with the solution that works today. When the transit authority and politicians get off their ass and install the lines we agreed and paid for then we can revisit the perfect hypothetical.
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> Road travel is more subsidized than rail, anecdotally New York spends between $1.11 and $7.34 subsidizing each ride on our Subway or LIRR, respectively, [1]. Assuming 2 trips a day on each of a year's 260 workdays, that comes to $577 to $3,810 of subsidies per commuter per year. The article is from 2012, so we'll use BLS data [2] to adjust those figures to September 2017 dollars: $618 and $4,080, respectively. "The statewide average of highway spending per capita in 2009 was $233," [3] or $266 in September 2017 dollars. That said, this isn't a fair comparison since we aren't adjusting for usage. On the other hand, most of roads' wear and tear comes from trucks [3]. And New York taxes the hell out of trucks [4]. TL; DR Trains work, but in the United States we tend to treat them as jobs programs first and public infrastructure second. [1] http://www.wnyc.org/story/283927-mta-suburban-passengers-get-7-per-ride-subway-riders-a-buck/ http://www.wnyc.org/story/283927-mta-suburban-passengers-get... [2] https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm [3] http://facweb.knowlton.ohio-state.edu/pviton/courses2/crp776/776-roads-handout.pdf http://facweb.knowlton.ohio-state.edu/pviton/courses2/crp776... [4] https://www.tax.ny.gov/bus/hut/huidx.htm https://www.tax.ny.gov/bus/hut/huidx.htm
- kalleboo 9y ago
  You're comparing different values here - subsidies per commuter vs subsidies per capita. To be fair you should recalculate the road spending to be paid only by those who use it for commuting. Not to mention that number only includes highway spending and not regular roads.
- TheCoelacanth 9y ago
  In NYC, the cost of the land area that roads take up is far more significant than the cost of the actual road itself.
- lazerpants 9y ago
  I would like to add a couple of points of clarification to your comment: 1. Subway rides for most commuters are money-makers for the MTA, it's rides late at night or at the ends of lines that lose money (full trains are obviously more cost effective). I suspect LIRR costs work out similarly though I have not seen enough of their data to know. 2. The NYC bus system is massively subsidized. The subway could operate (less frequently, and to fewer places) and make a profit, the bus system could not. I can probably find my old sources for that if anyone is terribly interested.
timthelion 9y ago
Cars are mostly subsidized by way of devoting the majority of publicly owned land to roads. If the government were to auction off the land under every street and highway, that would pay off the national debt in no time.
- V-2 9y ago
  Just because I don't have a car doesn't mean I don't use roads (eg. as of now, the groceries I buy weren't delivered to the store by drones)
  - timthelion 9y ago
    That doesn't change the fact that the cars and trucks that drive on them are subsidized. What if those goods were delivered by train?

yardie 9y ago

Just to note. In DC the train system is called the metro. Metrorail is the name for the miami transit train system. The author uses metro, metro train, and metrorail interchangeably. Left me slightly confused as if they were comparing DC to Miami.

cmsmith 9y ago
In DC, the mass transit agency is usually referred to as Metro, and offers two main services - Metrorail and Metrobus.
- yardie 9y ago
  I’ve only referred to the train as the metro and the buses as the bus. I’ve only seen in one city the locals refer to the train as the metrorail. And that was Miami.
  - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
    In colloquial use, you are right, but in written media I see references to DC Metrorail all the time.

bkohlmann 9y ago

Very useful. My experience, however, is that unless you live or are going to an event/work at a metro station, the "last mile" benefit of ride sharing tips the scales towards road travel in most instances.

dwills1 9y ago

Just like with Internet service, the real cost (time) is in the last mile, as bkohlmann refers to. Uber picks you up at your door. Did the study figure the average walking time to a Metro station into their statistics for random addresses? I doubt it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statist...

icebraining 9y ago
If you look closely, you'll see they did: "A trip from Metro Center to Bethesda, for instance, takes 33 minutes, and that includes time to wait for the train and walk to and from the station."

muglug 9y ago

Where cost = financial cost to the end user, not the cost to society when private corporations suck revenue out of public transportation systems for short-term market gain.

dogruck 9y ago
I agree with your first statement, but not the followip. Public transportation systems are woefully inefficient. If we made them operate more like private corporations, I would agree more.
- chipperyman573 9y ago
  >If we made them operate more like private corporations, I would agree more What specifically would you change to make them operate more like private corporations, and how would it help?
  - chrischen 9y ago
    The tokyo system seems to be a fairly efficient mix of public and private metros and train lines.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      Are the private metro and train lines more efficient than the public ones?
      - chrischen 9y ago
        Not really. There's a lot of interoperability involved (all transit systems can use each other's IC card and you can charge it at any company's terminals). The IC card can also be used at most merchants.
    - lmm 9y ago
      The tokyo system isn't really subject to market competition, because employers pay for employees' tickets.