6 ms·

How about “Our children reap what we sow”?

UweSchmidt 9y ago
How about trying to correctly attribute guilt to specific persons, committing specific crimes instead? Geopolitics is complicated and neither of us can take very little credit/guilt for the actions of any political entity that I happen to be part of.
- pm90 9y ago
  While I agree that we must hold specific people accountable for their actions, atrocities cannot be carried out in the scale they were in Africa without the support of the societies that these individuals hailed from. In fact, the very racist viewpoints that contributed to the horrific actions didn't just happen by default; it is the host societies which held these views, and these individuals perhaps only took it to the most extreme conclusion. I agree that Geopolitics is complicated and don't really agree with applying "karma" to societies and nations, mostly because its not very constructive. But one has to admit that the facts do seem to paint that picture.
- Mtinie 9y ago
  That’s fine, no guilt assignment in that case, just the current day outcomes of past generational decision making.
- eropple 9y ago
  The economic if-thens are not moral (well, they are, but not in this sense). The idea that they have a bearing on guilt is projective. To be fair, you should feel guilty, and so do I, and I work to push back on my own country's historical indecencies.
  - dmpk2k 9y ago
    He should feel proud of vaccines and antibiotics too then, the greatest boon mankind ever had. Very proud indeed. The populations in Africa would be a tiny fraction of what they currently are were it not for Western innovations. Likewise, the West has utterly crushed global absolute poverty, and is the leading pressure that is trying to end the ancient practice of slavery. By every objective metric (child mortality, lifespan, literacy, starvation, absolute poverty), the world is a better place today than ever before. By a huge margin. Entirely thanks to the West. I only mention this because there seems to be this narrative that we in the West should feel bad for the past, yet the West has been a firm net positive in the world. Probably the greatest net positive there ever was... provided we survive global warming, that is. So if we're going to guilt-trip people today for the actions of some historical Westerners, we should adulate people too for the actions of some historical Westerners. But somehow that never happens. The West is objectively the best thing that ever happened to mankind.
    - ethbro 9y ago
      > Entirely thanks to the West. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_dynasty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_dynasty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate Imho, the West shouldn't feel bad for the actions of historical Westerns. But it should absolutely feel bad for the (not insignificant) portion of its prosperity that was a result of that history. To put it another way, say I run an illegal sweatshop in Africa, bury my profits, leave a note to my daughter telling her where to find the money, then die. She doesn't get to ethically say "My dad was a terrible person and wrong" AND keep that money. Even if she didn't know where the money came from, started a business with it, became successful through her hard work, and only finds out later, she still bears guilt. You don't get to rig the game in your favor, then even things out after you've collected winnings from crooked hands and say "Okay, everything's fair now."
      - dmpk2k 9y ago
        > But it should absolutely feel bad for the (not insignificant) portion of its prosperity that was a result of that history. And it should feel great for the amazing things it has done for the world as well, as any graph of poverty and disease since the 1700s shows. And therein lies the rub: when was the last time you heard someone thank the West? It is likely 4 out of 5 people alive today wouldn't be if it weren't for the West. Of the remainder, 94% would live in absolute poverty, instead of the current 10%. They'd live at most 40 years, instead of 70+. They'd be anywhere from 300-1200x more likely to be starving. Instead of almost everyone reaching old age, 1/3 - 1/2 of all children would die of various causes. And so on, and so on, and so on. And so on. The list just doesn't end. The past was hellish to the modern eye. I wonder why! Focussing only on the bad, and completely ignoring the good, is intellectually dishonest and betrays a complete lack of perspective. > "Okay, everything's fair now." Except the world would be objectively far worse off if it wasn't for those crooked hands. See above.
        ethbro 9y ago
        You're supposing an alternative where it was only possible for the West to have created these inventions you allude to. While there have been thesises that only Great Britain possessed the necessary ingredients for steam power and industrialization, that argument isn't universally held. And I refuse to believe that this applies to every invention, especially as world population increased.

How about trying to correctly attribute guilt to specific persons, committing specific crimes instead? Geopolitics is complicated and neither of us can take very little credit/guilt for the actions of any political entity that I happen to be part of.

pm90 9y ago
While I agree that we must hold specific people accountable for their actions, atrocities cannot be carried out in the scale they were in Africa without the support of the societies that these individuals hailed from. In fact, the very racist viewpoints that contributed to the horrific actions didn't just happen by default; it is the host societies which held these views, and these individuals perhaps only took it to the most extreme conclusion. I agree that Geopolitics is complicated and don't really agree with applying "karma" to societies and nations, mostly because its not very constructive. But one has to admit that the facts do seem to paint that picture.
Mtinie 9y ago
That’s fine, no guilt assignment in that case, just the current day outcomes of past generational decision making.
eropple 9y ago
The economic if-thens are not moral (well, they are, but not in this sense). The idea that they have a bearing on guilt is projective. To be fair, you should feel guilty, and so do I, and I work to push back on my own country's historical indecencies.
- dmpk2k 9y ago
  He should feel proud of vaccines and antibiotics too then, the greatest boon mankind ever had. Very proud indeed. The populations in Africa would be a tiny fraction of what they currently are were it not for Western innovations. Likewise, the West has utterly crushed global absolute poverty, and is the leading pressure that is trying to end the ancient practice of slavery. By every objective metric (child mortality, lifespan, literacy, starvation, absolute poverty), the world is a better place today than ever before. By a huge margin. Entirely thanks to the West. I only mention this because there seems to be this narrative that we in the West should feel bad for the past, yet the West has been a firm net positive in the world. Probably the greatest net positive there ever was... provided we survive global warming, that is. So if we're going to guilt-trip people today for the actions of some historical Westerners, we should adulate people too for the actions of some historical Westerners. But somehow that never happens. The West is objectively the best thing that ever happened to mankind.
  - ethbro 9y ago
    > Entirely thanks to the West. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_dynasty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_dynasty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate Imho, the West shouldn't feel bad for the actions of historical Westerns. But it should absolutely feel bad for the (not insignificant) portion of its prosperity that was a result of that history. To put it another way, say I run an illegal sweatshop in Africa, bury my profits, leave a note to my daughter telling her where to find the money, then die. She doesn't get to ethically say "My dad was a terrible person and wrong" AND keep that money. Even if she didn't know where the money came from, started a business with it, became successful through her hard work, and only finds out later, she still bears guilt. You don't get to rig the game in your favor, then even things out after you've collected winnings from crooked hands and say "Okay, everything's fair now."
    - dmpk2k 9y ago
      > But it should absolutely feel bad for the (not insignificant) portion of its prosperity that was a result of that history. And it should feel great for the amazing things it has done for the world as well, as any graph of poverty and disease since the 1700s shows. And therein lies the rub: when was the last time you heard someone thank the West? It is likely 4 out of 5 people alive today wouldn't be if it weren't for the West. Of the remainder, 94% would live in absolute poverty, instead of the current 10%. They'd live at most 40 years, instead of 70+. They'd be anywhere from 300-1200x more likely to be starving. Instead of almost everyone reaching old age, 1/3 - 1/2 of all children would die of various causes. And so on, and so on, and so on. And so on. The list just doesn't end. The past was hellish to the modern eye. I wonder why! Focussing only on the bad, and completely ignoring the good, is intellectually dishonest and betrays a complete lack of perspective. > "Okay, everything's fair now." Except the world would be objectively far worse off if it wasn't for those crooked hands. See above.
      - ethbro 9y ago
        You're supposing an alternative where it was only possible for the West to have created these inventions you allude to. While there have been thesises that only Great Britain possessed the necessary ingredients for steam power and industrialization, that argument isn't universally held. And I refuse to believe that this applies to every invention, especially as world population increased.