7 ms·

"We reap what we sow" assumes an old testament concept of multi generational collective guilt and picturing your migration scenario penance, or divine(?) punish

"We reap what we sow" assumes an old testament concept of multi generational collective guilt and picturing your migration scenario penance, or divine(?) punishment sounds a little weird. Also, give Africa a little credit, literacy rates are up, maybe the problems can be tackled right over there? https://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/ourworldindata_literacy-rate-by-age-in-middle-east-and-northern-africa.png https://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/ourwor...

babygoat 9y ago
How about “Our children reap what we sow”?
- UweSchmidt 9y ago
  How about trying to correctly attribute guilt to specific persons, committing specific crimes instead? Geopolitics is complicated and neither of us can take very little credit/guilt for the actions of any political entity that I happen to be part of.
  - pm90 9y ago
    While I agree that we must hold specific people accountable for their actions, atrocities cannot be carried out in the scale they were in Africa without the support of the societies that these individuals hailed from. In fact, the very racist viewpoints that contributed to the horrific actions didn't just happen by default; it is the host societies which held these views, and these individuals perhaps only took it to the most extreme conclusion. I agree that Geopolitics is complicated and don't really agree with applying "karma" to societies and nations, mostly because its not very constructive. But one has to admit that the facts do seem to paint that picture.
  - Mtinie 9y ago
    That’s fine, no guilt assignment in that case, just the current day outcomes of past generational decision making.
  - eropple 9y ago
    The economic if-thens are not moral (well, they are, but not in this sense). The idea that they have a bearing on guilt is projective. To be fair, you should feel guilty, and so do I, and I work to push back on my own country's historical indecencies.
    - dmpk2k 9y ago
      He should feel proud of vaccines and antibiotics too then, the greatest boon mankind ever had. Very proud indeed. The populations in Africa would be a tiny fraction of what they currently are were it not for Western innovations. Likewise, the West has utterly crushed global absolute poverty, and is the leading pressure that is trying to end the ancient practice of slavery. By every objective metric (child mortality, lifespan, literacy, starvation, absolute poverty), the world is a better place today than ever before. By a huge margin. Entirely thanks to the West. I only mention this because there seems to be this narrative that we in the West should feel bad for the past, yet the West has been a firm net positive in the world. Probably the greatest net positive there ever was... provided we survive global warming, that is. So if we're going to guilt-trip people today for the actions of some historical Westerners, we should adulate people too for the actions of some historical Westerners. But somehow that never happens. The West is objectively the best thing that ever happened to mankind.
      - ethbro 9y ago
        > Entirely thanks to the West. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_dynasty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_dynasty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate Imho, the West shouldn't feel bad for the actions of historical Westerns. But it should absolutely feel bad for the (not insignificant) portion of its prosperity that was a result of that history. To put it another way, say I run an illegal sweatshop in Africa, bury my profits, leave a note to my daughter telling her where to find the money, then die. She doesn't get to ethically say "My dad was a terrible person and wrong" AND keep that money. Even if she didn't know where the money came from, started a business with it, became successful through her hard work, and only finds out later, she still bears guilt. You don't get to rig the game in your favor, then even things out after you've collected winnings from crooked hands and say "Okay, everything's fair now."
musage 9y ago
> "We reap what we sow" assumes an old testament concept of multi generational collective guilt Nah. Here are some thoughts on it: https://medium.com/thinking-action-for-ethical-being/critical-reflection-c1bed49a345c https://medium.com/thinking-action-for-ethical-being/critica... I also have to think of how Jacob Appelbaum said his father told him that if there ever is another Holocaust, it'll be his fault because he didn't prevent it. It's easy to dismiss it as hyperbole or demanding the impossible from an individual, but I think it has an kernel that is near infinite food for thought at the least. It's not literally true. But it's also not completely false.
gerdesj 9y ago
I agree with you (Uwe) that "We reap what we sow" is not really applicable here. That simplistic line of thinking could be applied to all sorts of current situations and past "injustices" (depending on your perspective.) You reap as you sow style arguments only really work when you have a simple cause:effect. We could play that style of argument ad absurdam in lots of ways, for example: GB decides to levy a (pretty small) tax on tea on her colonies a few years back, cue Boston Tea Party and other acts of terrorism on a grand scale. Blah blah blah ... history happens ... USA etc. It really isn't that simple. Facile, simplistic attempts to explain modern events based on single events from the long distant past - no matter how important at the time - are rarely helpful to understanding, let alone getting to a solution. Attempting to fit a pithy epithet to this sort of process is a bit unpleasant and disingenuous at best when chatting on an internet forum and might become dangerously destructive when wielded by a politician, especially one with real power. Covefe, anyone?
alexasmyths 9y ago
? "We reap what we sow" is the opposite of divine punishment or penance - and really isn't rooted in anything spiritual, it's the most pragmatic advice ever given. 'You reap what you sow' means you're going to get the outcome you 'built for yourself' - not some kind of divine bit of intervention! As for Africa - the Africans will 'reap what they sow' in Africa, and it has little to do with 'Europeans'. They have abundant natural wealth and were they to organize themselves intelligently, they'd be fairing pretty well.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

babygoat 9y ago

How about “Our children reap what we sow”?

UweSchmidt 9y ago
How about trying to correctly attribute guilt to specific persons, committing specific crimes instead? Geopolitics is complicated and neither of us can take very little credit/guilt for the actions of any political entity that I happen to be part of.
- pm90 9y ago
  While I agree that we must hold specific people accountable for their actions, atrocities cannot be carried out in the scale they were in Africa without the support of the societies that these individuals hailed from. In fact, the very racist viewpoints that contributed to the horrific actions didn't just happen by default; it is the host societies which held these views, and these individuals perhaps only took it to the most extreme conclusion. I agree that Geopolitics is complicated and don't really agree with applying "karma" to societies and nations, mostly because its not very constructive. But one has to admit that the facts do seem to paint that picture.
- Mtinie 9y ago
  That’s fine, no guilt assignment in that case, just the current day outcomes of past generational decision making.
- eropple 9y ago
  The economic if-thens are not moral (well, they are, but not in this sense). The idea that they have a bearing on guilt is projective. To be fair, you should feel guilty, and so do I, and I work to push back on my own country's historical indecencies.
  - dmpk2k 9y ago
    He should feel proud of vaccines and antibiotics too then, the greatest boon mankind ever had. Very proud indeed. The populations in Africa would be a tiny fraction of what they currently are were it not for Western innovations. Likewise, the West has utterly crushed global absolute poverty, and is the leading pressure that is trying to end the ancient practice of slavery. By every objective metric (child mortality, lifespan, literacy, starvation, absolute poverty), the world is a better place today than ever before. By a huge margin. Entirely thanks to the West. I only mention this because there seems to be this narrative that we in the West should feel bad for the past, yet the West has been a firm net positive in the world. Probably the greatest net positive there ever was... provided we survive global warming, that is. So if we're going to guilt-trip people today for the actions of some historical Westerners, we should adulate people too for the actions of some historical Westerners. But somehow that never happens. The West is objectively the best thing that ever happened to mankind.
    - ethbro 9y ago
      > Entirely thanks to the West. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_dynasty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_dynasty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate Imho, the West shouldn't feel bad for the actions of historical Westerns. But it should absolutely feel bad for the (not insignificant) portion of its prosperity that was a result of that history. To put it another way, say I run an illegal sweatshop in Africa, bury my profits, leave a note to my daughter telling her where to find the money, then die. She doesn't get to ethically say "My dad was a terrible person and wrong" AND keep that money. Even if she didn't know where the money came from, started a business with it, became successful through her hard work, and only finds out later, she still bears guilt. You don't get to rig the game in your favor, then even things out after you've collected winnings from crooked hands and say "Okay, everything's fair now."

musage 9y ago

> "We reap what we sow" assumes an old testament concept of multi generational collective guilt Nah. Here are some thoughts on it: https://medium.com/thinking-action-for-ethical-being/critical-reflection-c1bed49a345c https://medium.com/thinking-action-for-ethical-being/critica... I also have to think of how Jacob Appelbaum said his father told him that if there ever is another Holocaust, it'll be his fault because he didn't prevent it. It's easy to dismiss it as hyperbole or demanding the impossible from an individual, but I think it has an kernel that is near infinite food for thought at the least. It's not literally true. But it's also not completely false.

gerdesj 9y ago

I agree with you (Uwe) that "We reap what we sow" is not really applicable here. That simplistic line of thinking could be applied to all sorts of current situations and past "injustices" (depending on your perspective.) You reap as you sow style arguments only really work when you have a simple cause:effect. We could play that style of argument ad absurdam in lots of ways, for example: GB decides to levy a (pretty small) tax on tea on her colonies a few years back, cue Boston Tea Party and other acts of terrorism on a grand scale. Blah blah blah ... history happens ... USA etc. It really isn't that simple. Facile, simplistic attempts to explain modern events based on single events from the long distant past - no matter how important at the time - are rarely helpful to understanding, let alone getting to a solution. Attempting to fit a pithy epithet to this sort of process is a bit unpleasant and disingenuous at best when chatting on an internet forum and might become dangerously destructive when wielded by a politician, especially one with real power. Covefe, anyone?

alexasmyths 9y ago

? "We reap what we sow" is the opposite of divine punishment or penance - and really isn't rooted in anything spiritual, it's the most pragmatic advice ever given. 'You reap what you sow' means you're going to get the outcome you 'built for yourself' - not some kind of divine bit of intervention! As for Africa - the Africans will 'reap what they sow' in Africa, and it has little to do with 'Europeans'. They have abundant natural wealth and were they to organize themselves intelligently, they'd be fairing pretty well.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]