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Are there any books or papers you could recommend which explore this view of the dark ages - say that compare/contrast the type of civilized society that emerge

Are there any books or papers you could recommend which explore this view of the dark ages - say that compare/contrast the type of civilized society that emerges in the presence of a state with one that emerges in its absence?

travmatt 9y ago
If you're interested in the formation of states you'd probably be interested in Francis Fukuyama's "Origins of Political Order". He starts from small bands of hunter-gatherers and explores some factors that drove political development from those disparate bands up through the French Revolution.
jstewartmobile 9y ago
Off the top of my head, anything Carrol Quigley. Regarding what my professors read, I will have to inquire. http://www.carrollquigley.net/books.htm http://www.carrollquigley.net/books.htm http://www.carrollquigley.net/book-reviews/history_freedom_western_world.htm http://www.carrollquigley.net/book-reviews/history_freedom_w... Oh, and Durant's "The Age of Faith" is also worth a read.
unscaled 9y ago
I think this is yet another misconception that might come out of theoretical political science (or the ignorant press). The political difference between the Early Middle Ages (a.k.a the dark ages) and the Roman empire wasn't the lack of state, but a very different type of state. The Early Middle Ages in Europe saw a large number of short-lived monarchies and a few long-lived ones. The Catholic Church rivaled and often surpassed secular states in its power. Throughout the entire middle ages, for most of the peasantry, interaction with the state in the broadest sense that we have today (i.e. with the king) was scarce. Local rulers, dignitaries and institutions, had large autonomy and more direct influence on the daily lives of peasants. Free cities are a good example of completely autonomous sovereignty. If they were chartered, the local princes had little power over them - but chartered cities only appear in the very end of the dark ages. Anyway, I recommend 'Medieval Cities: Their Origins and the Revival of Trade' by Henri Pirenne. It's an old book and there's definitely more up to date research, but Henri Pirenne is a brilliant historian and writer and he paints a very vivid picture of what the "so-called dark ages" in Europe were like.
Radim 9y ago
A similar thing happened after the Bronze age collapse -- another "dark age". As we gradually find out, not so dark after all, but rather full of vibrant ideas and structural changes. As the old structures collapse, a new order invariably claws its way out of the debris. These are periods of tremendous innovation and creativity, here boosted by the prosperous Medieval Warm Period. The "dark" in "dark ages" reflects more our lack of written documents from these periods (little surviving literature) and a sentimental bias of the early historians toward the lost Roman period. Not a lack of stuff happening -- quite the contrary.

travmatt 9y ago

If you're interested in the formation of states you'd probably be interested in Francis Fukuyama's "Origins of Political Order". He starts from small bands of hunter-gatherers and explores some factors that drove political development from those disparate bands up through the French Revolution.

jstewartmobile 9y ago

Off the top of my head, anything Carrol Quigley. Regarding what my professors read, I will have to inquire. http://www.carrollquigley.net/books.htm http://www.carrollquigley.net/books.htm http://www.carrollquigley.net/book-reviews/history_freedom_western_world.htm http://www.carrollquigley.net/book-reviews/history_freedom_w... Oh, and Durant's "The Age of Faith" is also worth a read.

unscaled 9y ago

I think this is yet another misconception that might come out of theoretical political science (or the ignorant press). The political difference between the Early Middle Ages (a.k.a the dark ages) and the Roman empire wasn't the lack of state, but a very different type of state. The Early Middle Ages in Europe saw a large number of short-lived monarchies and a few long-lived ones. The Catholic Church rivaled and often surpassed secular states in its power. Throughout the entire middle ages, for most of the peasantry, interaction with the state in the broadest sense that we have today (i.e. with the king) was scarce. Local rulers, dignitaries and institutions, had large autonomy and more direct influence on the daily lives of peasants. Free cities are a good example of completely autonomous sovereignty. If they were chartered, the local princes had little power over them - but chartered cities only appear in the very end of the dark ages. Anyway, I recommend 'Medieval Cities: Their Origins and the Revival of Trade' by Henri Pirenne. It's an old book and there's definitely more up to date research, but Henri Pirenne is a brilliant historian and writer and he paints a very vivid picture of what the "so-called dark ages" in Europe were like.

Radim 9y ago

A similar thing happened after the Bronze age collapse -- another "dark age". As we gradually find out, not so dark after all, but rather full of vibrant ideas and structural changes. As the old structures collapse, a new order invariably claws its way out of the debris. These are periods of tremendous innovation and creativity, here boosted by the prosperous Medieval Warm Period. The "dark" in "dark ages" reflects more our lack of written documents from these periods (little surviving literature) and a sentimental bias of the early historians toward the lost Roman period. Not a lack of stuff happening -- quite the contrary.