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The wolf biting the children may be related to being raised in an environment that included brutally murdering other animals at the owner's whim. We can't know

The wolf biting the children may be related to being raised in an environment that included brutally murdering other animals at the owner's whim. We can't know whether that matters.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> We can't know whether that matters Not from this anecdote, but there is research on the topic. Studying puppies at 3, 4 and 5 weeks of age: “compared to wolves, dogs tended to display more communicative signals that could potentially facilitate social interactions, such as distress vocalization, tail wagging, and gazing at the humans’ face. In contrast to dog puppies, wolf pups showed aggressive behavior toward a familiar experimenter and also seemed to be more prone to avoidance. [1]” Approach avoidance through biting and other behaviours are discussed in the same paper’s “discussion” section. Later, they find wolves are worse at yielding to humans, keeping eye contact, sensing changes in vocal intonation or context when multiple people enter the room, et cetera [2]. [1] http://real.mtak.hu/3680/1/1075597.pdf http://real.mtak.hu/3680/1/1075597.pdf [2] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016815911300066X http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159113...
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  You could say the same thing about introverts. (I promise that's a genuinely thoughtful point, not an offhand dismissal.) Research into the question of whether wolves are different will discover that wolves are different. I appreciate the cite, but it isn't evidence that wolves will maul children just because they're ambitious. Maybe they do; maybe you're right. All we can say for certain is that we don't know. I think you could make the same points about lions, yet there is evidence of lions loving their owners and treating them with the same emotional bonds as a family member.
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    > it isn't evidence that wolves will maul children just because they're ambitious I agree, the research doesn’t say this. It says wolves offer a lower tolerance for making mistakes, a higher cost when things go wrong and fewer aids (e.g. picking up on intonation, instinctive subservience) to help you along. You can do it. (Our ancestors did.) You’ll just have an animal vying for your seat in the pack, because it honestly thinks (warning: anthropomorphising) it can do a better job than your weak, debilitated ass in promoting the survival of its pack. Which it sees as much as its as much as it is yours. If someone is okay with that, fine. But understand the risks, that lots of people who thought they understood the risks didn’t, and that the worst-case outcome involves your animal killing someone’s kid or having to be put down because of your hubris.
    - sillysaurus3 9y ago
      Ah, I didn't mean to give the impression that owning a wolf would be a good idea. It's certainly perilous, just like living with a tiger. I just think they can love you in their own way. If someone wants to explore the question, and they're doing so safely and only risking themselves, then it's probably no one else's business. On the other hand, it's hard to imagine how that could be done safely, so I concede. Thanks for the interesting debate.
      - bitcoindoubt 9y ago
        I made a throwaway just to say that you're incredibly retarded.
      - kbenson 9y ago
        > I just think they can love you in their own way. Yes. In the same way your sociopath childhood friend might love you. They will prioritize you over others (probably because you're known and they can anticipate your behavior), and use you or allow you to use them when they think it is beneficial. Don't expect sacrifice or compassionate understanding though, and don't expect your feelings to have much weight beyond how they affect your attitude towards them (or how you can affect the attitudes of others).

The wolf biting the children may be related to being raised in an environment that included brutally murdering other animals at the owner's whim. We can't know whether that matters.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

> We can't know whether that matters Not from this anecdote, but there is research on the topic. Studying puppies at 3, 4 and 5 weeks of age: “compared to wolves, dogs tended to display more communicative signals that could potentially facilitate social interactions, such as distress vocalization, tail wagging, and gazing at the humans’ face. In contrast to dog puppies, wolf pups showed aggressive behavior toward a familiar experimenter and also seemed to be more prone to avoidance. [1]” Approach avoidance through biting and other behaviours are discussed in the same paper’s “discussion” section. Later, they find wolves are worse at yielding to humans, keeping eye contact, sensing changes in vocal intonation or context when multiple people enter the room, et cetera [2]. [1] http://real.mtak.hu/3680/1/1075597.pdf http://real.mtak.hu/3680/1/1075597.pdf [2] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016815911300066X http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159113...

sillysaurus3 9y ago
You could say the same thing about introverts. (I promise that's a genuinely thoughtful point, not an offhand dismissal.) Research into the question of whether wolves are different will discover that wolves are different. I appreciate the cite, but it isn't evidence that wolves will maul children just because they're ambitious. Maybe they do; maybe you're right. All we can say for certain is that we don't know. I think you could make the same points about lions, yet there is evidence of lions loving their owners and treating them with the same emotional bonds as a family member.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > it isn't evidence that wolves will maul children just because they're ambitious I agree, the research doesn’t say this. It says wolves offer a lower tolerance for making mistakes, a higher cost when things go wrong and fewer aids (e.g. picking up on intonation, instinctive subservience) to help you along. You can do it. (Our ancestors did.) You’ll just have an animal vying for your seat in the pack, because it honestly thinks (warning: anthropomorphising) it can do a better job than your weak, debilitated ass in promoting the survival of its pack. Which it sees as much as its as much as it is yours. If someone is okay with that, fine. But understand the risks, that lots of people who thought they understood the risks didn’t, and that the worst-case outcome involves your animal killing someone’s kid or having to be put down because of your hubris.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    Ah, I didn't mean to give the impression that owning a wolf would be a good idea. It's certainly perilous, just like living with a tiger. I just think they can love you in their own way. If someone wants to explore the question, and they're doing so safely and only risking themselves, then it's probably no one else's business. On the other hand, it's hard to imagine how that could be done safely, so I concede. Thanks for the interesting debate.
    - bitcoindoubt 9y ago
      I made a throwaway just to say that you're incredibly retarded.
    - kbenson 9y ago
      > I just think they can love you in their own way. Yes. In the same way your sociopath childhood friend might love you. They will prioritize you over others (probably because you're known and they can anticipate your behavior), and use you or allow you to use them when they think it is beneficial. Don't expect sacrifice or compassionate understanding though, and don't expect your feelings to have much weight beyond how they affect your attitude towards them (or how you can affect the attitudes of others).