5 ms·

I mean, doesn't the west have the exact same issues? p-Hacking, lack of repeat studies, focusing on experiments that will make the biggest headlines, etc. http

I mean, doesn't the west have the exact same issues? p-Hacking, lack of repeat studies, focusing on experiments that will make the biggest headlines, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42QuXLucH3Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42QuXLucH3Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rnq1NpHdmw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rnq1NpHdmw

robotresearcher 9y ago
The issues are the same, but the frequency of them is very important. Academic fraud is like crime: it's always going to happen, but a little is very different to a lot.
- boomboomsubban 9y ago
  The frequency is very important. Where is any evidence that the Chinese have a higher rate?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - robotresearcher 9y ago
    From the fine article that we are discussing: “Since 2012, the country has retracted more scientific papers because of faked peer reviews than all other countries and territories put together, according to Retraction Watch” Along with the entire rest of the article filled with quotes and stats.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - boomboomsubban 9y ago
      Number of faked papers isn't a frequency.
      - robotresearcher 9y ago
        Do you believe that China published more papers than everyone else put together in the same period? I helped run a large international conference recently, with 900 published papers. Of these 66 (7.3%) were from China, and 280 (31%) from the US. Germany had 104 (12%). The numbers will vary by field, of course, but I've no reason to believe that this meeting was an outlier.
        boomboomsubban 9y ago
        >Do you believe that China published more papers than everyone else put together in the same period? I don't hold a belief, I haven't seen data that you seemed to be using to make conclusions. Or you're making somewhat large assumptions based on a few pieces of information. A little is different than a lot, both could have a little or a lot though. > I've no reason to believe that this meeting was an outlier Here's one, it was presumably run across the Pacific ocean from China.
        robotresearcher 9y ago
        You’re trying too hard. There is no reason to believe that China is publishing papers faster than the rest of the world put together, unless you have data to that effect. China is big, but not bigger than everyone else put together. Less than one person in six is Chinese. And your presumption happens to be accurate, but 1 in 3 editions of the conference happen in Asia including China and China is still out-published by the USA by 4 to 1 or so even when the event is held in China. Chinese outnumber Americans five to one. Americans outpublish Chinese people many times over. As an aside, Swiss people outpublish Americans 8 to 1. So, while skepticism is noble, when a country of 1/6 the people in the world has a retraction rate higher than everyone else put together, you need extraordinary data to decide that they are not in a mess. And “I don’t have data” is no such argument.
        boomboomsubban 9y ago
        So in a discussion about research fraud, you're chastising me for wanting data you call important, putting complete trust in the data of a blog that you haven't seen, and posted random data you claim to have helped collect without giving me any reason to believe it's accurate. Looking for retraction watch's numbers gave me a study that shows the US having the most retractions.[1] So again, if rates are what is important, you need data showing the rates. http://www.pnas.org/content/109/42/17028.full http://www.pnas.org/content/109/42/17028.full
krona 9y ago
The issue is as much a cultural one. I used to work with an editor of one of the worlds most prestigious chemistry journals, and she oft remarked how Chinese scientists didn't think accusations of plagiarism were sufficient grounds for rejection of a paper.
- everybodyknows 9y ago
  In some cultures, cheaters try to keep it secret from the people they care about, because ostracism might follow. In other cultures, successful cheating is praised.
  - whooshee 9y ago
    I cannot think of a country which values cheating.
frozenport 9y ago
And much of it is committed by Chinease origin scientists.
- sctb 9y ago
  We've already asked you to please not make any nationalistic swipes like this, so we've banned the account.

robotresearcher 9y ago

The issues are the same, but the frequency of them is very important. Academic fraud is like crime: it's always going to happen, but a little is very different to a lot.

boomboomsubban 9y ago
The frequency is very important. Where is any evidence that the Chinese have a higher rate?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- robotresearcher 9y ago
  From the fine article that we are discussing: “Since 2012, the country has retracted more scientific papers because of faked peer reviews than all other countries and territories put together, according to Retraction Watch” Along with the entire rest of the article filled with quotes and stats.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - boomboomsubban 9y ago
    Number of faked papers isn't a frequency.
    - robotresearcher 9y ago
      Do you believe that China published more papers than everyone else put together in the same period? I helped run a large international conference recently, with 900 published papers. Of these 66 (7.3%) were from China, and 280 (31%) from the US. Germany had 104 (12%). The numbers will vary by field, of course, but I've no reason to believe that this meeting was an outlier.
      - boomboomsubban 9y ago
        >Do you believe that China published more papers than everyone else put together in the same period? I don't hold a belief, I haven't seen data that you seemed to be using to make conclusions. Or you're making somewhat large assumptions based on a few pieces of information. A little is different than a lot, both could have a little or a lot though. > I've no reason to believe that this meeting was an outlier Here's one, it was presumably run across the Pacific ocean from China.
        robotresearcher 9y ago
        You’re trying too hard. There is no reason to believe that China is publishing papers faster than the rest of the world put together, unless you have data to that effect. China is big, but not bigger than everyone else put together. Less than one person in six is Chinese. And your presumption happens to be accurate, but 1 in 3 editions of the conference happen in Asia including China and China is still out-published by the USA by 4 to 1 or so even when the event is held in China. Chinese outnumber Americans five to one. Americans outpublish Chinese people many times over. As an aside, Swiss people outpublish Americans 8 to 1. So, while skepticism is noble, when a country of 1/6 the people in the world has a retraction rate higher than everyone else put together, you need extraordinary data to decide that they are not in a mess. And “I don’t have data” is no such argument.
        boomboomsubban 9y ago
        So in a discussion about research fraud, you're chastising me for wanting data you call important, putting complete trust in the data of a blog that you haven't seen, and posted random data you claim to have helped collect without giving me any reason to believe it's accurate. Looking for retraction watch's numbers gave me a study that shows the US having the most retractions.[1] So again, if rates are what is important, you need data showing the rates. http://www.pnas.org/content/109/42/17028.full http://www.pnas.org/content/109/42/17028.full

krona 9y ago

The issue is as much a cultural one. I used to work with an editor of one of the worlds most prestigious chemistry journals, and she oft remarked how Chinese scientists didn't think accusations of plagiarism were sufficient grounds for rejection of a paper.

everybodyknows 9y ago
In some cultures, cheaters try to keep it secret from the people they care about, because ostracism might follow. In other cultures, successful cheating is praised.
- whooshee 9y ago
  I cannot think of a country which values cheating.

frozenport 9y ago

And much of it is committed by Chinease origin scientists.

sctb 9y ago
We've already asked you to please not make any nationalistic swipes like this, so we've banned the account.