5 ms·

At the risk of sounding shallow, the salary (and NOT "competitive rates" or "DOE"). I don't want to waste my time or a potential employer's if expectations won'

At the risk of sounding shallow, the salary (and NOT "competitive rates" or "DOE"). I don't want to waste my time or a potential employer's if expectations won't line up. It's not, of course, the only thing I care about, but far too few postings offer this level of transparency. Love the other ideas of work week length and problem to be solved as well.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
maxxxxx 9y ago
I agree. I have a lot of respect for companies that post a clear range (it has to be better than just "80000-150000 depending on experience"). It's also nice if they describe what they actually work on and not just some buzzwords. After suffering a cube farm for the last years I also like companies who have offices or are remote. Decent vacation is also appreciated.
YPCrumble 9y ago
That's not shallow at all. If a job doesn't list an attractive salary it's a clear indication it's not a good job.
- eradicatethots 9y ago
  Most jobs don’t list salaries lol
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    If your org doesn't list a salary, I'll go looking on Glassdoor or this crowdsourced spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1a1Df6dg2Pby1UoNlZU2l0FEykKsQKttu7O6q7iQd2bU/htmlview?usp=sharing&sle=true https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1a1Df6dg2Pby1UoNlZU2l... Or I'll ask former employees sourced from their Linkedin profiles. Fight information asymmetry whenever possible.
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      I'm curious. Why the downvotes on this comment?
      - quuquuquu 9y ago
        Angry recruiters and managers who don't want the truth exposed :)
        toomuchtodo 9y ago
        As long as HN doesn't shadow/hell ban me when these subjects come up and I comment like I did above, I'm always going to fight for workers to maximize their earning potential.
        quuquuquu 9y ago
        The power of alternate accounts, I've already experienced the end-game you've described ;) Sadly there is not much of an appetite for truth that affects any business exploits that rely on misinformation. If you began informing Ethiopian coffee bean farmers of how much Starbucks charges for a cup of coffee for just a few cents worth of coffee beans... They would find a way to raise their price ;)
- mrburton 9y ago
  There are multiple reasons why companies don't list out salaries. e.g., it often attracts the wrong talent, it can create distrust with candidates who think "Wait, you're offering me X when you listed X-Z" Some firms won't list it also for legal concerns as well.
  - polote 9y ago
    And there is not a full hiring process to find out that those are the wrong people ?
    - mrburton 9y ago
      The hiring process in most companies is broken. When it comes to recruiters, it's a very interesting space. There are two types engagements recruiting firms have with companies: 1. contingency - You only make money when you place someone. This is what triggers the blasting of many resumes over to companies with little vetting. In short, it's a numbers game. 2. retained - This is when a firm pays the recruiter either all or partially upfront. The recruiter is then incentive to their very best to place the candidate. When you really dig into the recruiting space, it's very interesting and you start to uncover things that create a bad experience for candidates, companies, and recruiters.
BurningFrog 9y ago
I never expect to see a salary, since it depends so much on the person you end up hiring.
- ljoshua 9y ago
  I understand the thinking behind that and have been there, but now that I'm getting into positions of hiring and having previously worked for an org where salaries were public and fixed at each level, I can't imagine having it work any other way. In my future postings, I will evaluate the market for the type of position I'm posting, decide on a pretty narrow range (even a specific number), and make it part of the posting and the job overall. It worked well for me and many others, and removes so many issues.
jcrben 9y ago
You'll like the new California law AB168: "California employers can no longer ask job applicants about their prior salary and — if applicants ask — must give them a pay range for the job they are seeking, under a new state law that takes effect Jan. 1." http://www.calpeculiarities.com/2017/10/12/third-times-the-charm-for-california-salary-history-ban-legislation/ http://www.calpeculiarities.com/2017/10/12/third-times-the-c...
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  The first part, I was aware of. The second part, I was not. This leads me to believe there's an interesting project in automating the crowdsourcing of role salary ranges. Land on page for a job on an aggregator board. GeoIP detects if you're in California; asks you confirm if you're interested in the salary range of the job. You click "yes", it submits the request (which requires a response by law). Response is reported back to requestor when it arrives, aggregator board has salary on record.
- dawnerd 9y ago
  That didn’t matter since an employer could look up your salary history on the service Equifax and others provide. Second part of the law is brilliant!
dotdi 9y ago
I have recently spent a long time (i.e. months) and an unholy amount of energy in an interview process that ended up offering a firm number (because of a ladder similar to the one at Google) that was significantly lower than what I was making at that time. In the same time I talked to that company, I had had enough time to talk to 5 others and get 5 more offers that were all offering at least as much as I was making or significantly more. Since I was really interested in company #1, I declined really good offers along the way, hoping I'd get an offer from that company. You can imagine my elation and subsequent horrors when they told me that they had picked me for the job and showed me their salary ranges. I would never ever in my life want to go through such an experience again and I actively avoid companies that are hiding or avoiding that topic somewhat early in the process.
- alphonsegaston 9y ago
  I had a similar experience recently with an employer essentially making an offer, but asking me to jump through all kinds of subsequent pre-employment screening hoops before they would disclose salary (which was, of course, below market when I pushed back and made them give me a number). I don’t knew if this is some new tactic, but the whole think struck me as trying to leverage a sunk cost fallacy to underpay employees.
- lynnetye 9y ago
  Just curious, did company #1 lead you to believe that they'd offer you a competitive salary, or did you assume that they would? Did they know you were turning down other offers? Either way, it's a lesson learned. Thanks for sharing.
  - dotdi 9y ago
    There were several factors: - This took place in Germany, where salaries don't vary to a very large extent. There are some outliers, but most people know they need to offer a certain amount of $$$ for talent. - I did my research and assessed the current market. It was on par with my salary at that time. - They made sure to communicate that there is no equity offered, which made me believe their salaries are adjusted accordingly. - No, I didn't tell them I was turning down offers. But I did tell them that if they don't move faster, I'm going to accept another offer.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

maxxxxx 9y ago

I agree. I have a lot of respect for companies that post a clear range (it has to be better than just "80000-150000 depending on experience"). It's also nice if they describe what they actually work on and not just some buzzwords. After suffering a cube farm for the last years I also like companies who have offices or are remote. Decent vacation is also appreciated.

YPCrumble 9y ago

That's not shallow at all. If a job doesn't list an attractive salary it's a clear indication it's not a good job.

eradicatethots 9y ago
Most jobs don’t list salaries lol
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  If your org doesn't list a salary, I'll go looking on Glassdoor or this crowdsourced spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1a1Df6dg2Pby1UoNlZU2l0FEykKsQKttu7O6q7iQd2bU/htmlview?usp=sharing&sle=true https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1a1Df6dg2Pby1UoNlZU2l... Or I'll ask former employees sourced from their Linkedin profiles. Fight information asymmetry whenever possible.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    I'm curious. Why the downvotes on this comment?
    - quuquuquu 9y ago
      Angry recruiters and managers who don't want the truth exposed :)
      - toomuchtodo 9y ago
        As long as HN doesn't shadow/hell ban me when these subjects come up and I comment like I did above, I'm always going to fight for workers to maximize their earning potential.
        quuquuquu 9y ago
        The power of alternate accounts, I've already experienced the end-game you've described ;) Sadly there is not much of an appetite for truth that affects any business exploits that rely on misinformation. If you began informing Ethiopian coffee bean farmers of how much Starbucks charges for a cup of coffee for just a few cents worth of coffee beans... They would find a way to raise their price ;)
mrburton 9y ago
There are multiple reasons why companies don't list out salaries. e.g., it often attracts the wrong talent, it can create distrust with candidates who think "Wait, you're offering me X when you listed X-Z" Some firms won't list it also for legal concerns as well.
- polote 9y ago
  And there is not a full hiring process to find out that those are the wrong people ?
  - mrburton 9y ago
    The hiring process in most companies is broken. When it comes to recruiters, it's a very interesting space. There are two types engagements recruiting firms have with companies: 1. contingency - You only make money when you place someone. This is what triggers the blasting of many resumes over to companies with little vetting. In short, it's a numbers game. 2. retained - This is when a firm pays the recruiter either all or partially upfront. The recruiter is then incentive to their very best to place the candidate. When you really dig into the recruiting space, it's very interesting and you start to uncover things that create a bad experience for candidates, companies, and recruiters.

BurningFrog 9y ago

I never expect to see a salary, since it depends so much on the person you end up hiring.

ljoshua 9y ago
I understand the thinking behind that and have been there, but now that I'm getting into positions of hiring and having previously worked for an org where salaries were public and fixed at each level, I can't imagine having it work any other way. In my future postings, I will evaluate the market for the type of position I'm posting, decide on a pretty narrow range (even a specific number), and make it part of the posting and the job overall. It worked well for me and many others, and removes so many issues.

jcrben 9y ago

You'll like the new California law AB168: "California employers can no longer ask job applicants about their prior salary and — if applicants ask — must give them a pay range for the job they are seeking, under a new state law that takes effect Jan. 1." http://www.calpeculiarities.com/2017/10/12/third-times-the-charm-for-california-salary-history-ban-legislation/ http://www.calpeculiarities.com/2017/10/12/third-times-the-c...

toomuchtodo 9y ago
The first part, I was aware of. The second part, I was not. This leads me to believe there's an interesting project in automating the crowdsourcing of role salary ranges. Land on page for a job on an aggregator board. GeoIP detects if you're in California; asks you confirm if you're interested in the salary range of the job. You click "yes", it submits the request (which requires a response by law). Response is reported back to requestor when it arrives, aggregator board has salary on record.
dawnerd 9y ago
That didn’t matter since an employer could look up your salary history on the service Equifax and others provide. Second part of the law is brilliant!

dotdi 9y ago

I have recently spent a long time (i.e. months) and an unholy amount of energy in an interview process that ended up offering a firm number (because of a ladder similar to the one at Google) that was significantly lower than what I was making at that time. In the same time I talked to that company, I had had enough time to talk to 5 others and get 5 more offers that were all offering at least as much as I was making or significantly more. Since I was really interested in company #1, I declined really good offers along the way, hoping I'd get an offer from that company. You can imagine my elation and subsequent horrors when they told me that they had picked me for the job and showed me their salary ranges. I would never ever in my life want to go through such an experience again and I actively avoid companies that are hiding or avoiding that topic somewhat early in the process.

alphonsegaston 9y ago
I had a similar experience recently with an employer essentially making an offer, but asking me to jump through all kinds of subsequent pre-employment screening hoops before they would disclose salary (which was, of course, below market when I pushed back and made them give me a number). I don’t knew if this is some new tactic, but the whole think struck me as trying to leverage a sunk cost fallacy to underpay employees.
lynnetye 9y ago
Just curious, did company #1 lead you to believe that they'd offer you a competitive salary, or did you assume that they would? Did they know you were turning down other offers? Either way, it's a lesson learned. Thanks for sharing.
- dotdi 9y ago
  There were several factors: - This took place in Germany, where salaries don't vary to a very large extent. There are some outliers, but most people know they need to offer a certain amount of $$$ for talent. - I did my research and assessed the current market. It was on par with my salary at that time. - They made sure to communicate that there is no equity offered, which made me believe their salaries are adjusted accordingly. - No, I didn't tell them I was turning down offers. But I did tell them that if they don't move faster, I'm going to accept another offer.