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Well, that's the question, isn't it? If your citizens are paying for expensive locally made steel while the rest of the world can buy cheap steel from Mexico ar
by arjie 9y ago
Well, that's the question, isn't it? If your citizens are paying for expensive locally made steel while the rest of the world can buy cheap steel from Mexico are you supporting your citizens or one tiny section of them?
To make it clearer, imagine if an iPhone were built in the US. People have speculated that it would cost over $2000 for the $600 iPhone 5. Now, are Americans better off that 200 million can't buy iPhones but that 60,000 of them have jobs? In fact, _would_ the 200 million buy iPhones to keep the 60,000 employed? Or would they just buy the Samsung that costs $600? Then you'd lose the employment of the 60,000 too.
Subsidies aren't free. Tariffs aren't free. They are a tax twice over on every fellow citizen who isn't subsidized or protected by tariff.
- mistermann 9y agoAre you a believer that letting jobs freely flow to the cheapest place in the world, and products to flow tariff free across borders, is the optimum approach for all people and across all time frames (short/medium/long)?
- AdrianB1 9y agoLong term, this will happen no matter what. There is no way to have wages in US 5-10 times bigger than in other countries only because politicians can do such a thing (if they would). If John Doe is creating X value in country Y or Z, John's wage should be linked to X and nothing else, especially politicians and location. What makes country Y more special than country Z?
- eberkund 9y agoExactly this, long term the cost of living and GDP across the world is going to normalize. As it is now, someone living in a western country could take a month's salary and live like a king in many less developed countries, that is rapidly changing.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y agoYet the system can be rigged. China's currency is artificially being kept cheap so that manufacturing stays there. Mexico and many Asian countries have terrible labor or environmental protection laws. It seems like maintaining a free market in such a market would lead to a race to the bottom with regards to wages and quality of life. Why should we allow that to happen just to maximize profits?
- AdrianB1 9y agoNo. Just look inside European Union, where the legislation is about the same and differences in wages are 5x. What can you blame here?
- TheAdamAndChe 9y agoI don't think trade with advanced countries is the problem. You don't hear many people complain about trade with Canada or the UK because they have good environmental protection and labor laws. Globalization is a net positive for the poor there because it optimizes capital flows without deleveraging the worker too much. The issue really is just with countries that don't provide a quality of life that the US offers, like Mexico.
- AdrianB1 9y agoStill jobs from France move to Bulgaria. In the light of the article, that is exactly the same problem.
- mistermann 9y agoYou guys are the ones telling us it has to normalize, it's been quite some time now and there's still a massive gap, isn't this an impossible outcome?
- eberkund 9y agoI don't think it is a race to the bottom. China is doing that because they are still developing so it makes sense to push their currency down to boost manufacturing. But at some point Chinese workers will be able to demand similar wages and quality of life to western countries. This is when things will get interesting in my opinion. Maybe at this point China will be the ones exporting manufacturing to poorer less industrialized countries.
- mistermann 9y ago> Long term, this will happen no matter what. "letting jobs freely flow to the cheapest place in the world, and products to flow tariff free across borders" will happen, no matter what? Does the free will of human beings to choose and pursue their own destiny have something to do with it? > There is no way to have wages in US 5-10 times bigger than in other countries only because politicians can do such a thing (if they would). Not higher than everyone of course, but this assumption that everything is going to even out across all countries perfectly evenly seems like a rather extraordinary belief that at least ignores the ability and willingness of humans to go collectively insane periodically. Does the human nature/culture aspect of this situation not bother you at all? For example, I hope we can agree that certain cultures are better than others at certain things, for whatever reason. For example, the US at innovation, the Japanese at perfecting things, the Chinese at mass production and working incredibly hard (so far, what's next we shall see). Do you think it is absolutely not possible at all that some cultures on earth might lack certain strengths required to compete on a tariff-free global marketplace, or the social cohesion to govern society successfully under these new conditions?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- crdoconnor 9y ago>To make it clearer, imagine if an iPhone were built in the US. People have speculated that it would cost over $2000 for the $600 iPhone 5. I'd rather have a job than a cheap iPhone. I also seriously doubt that build costs would rocket from $200 to $2000 simply by moving production to the US.