5 ms·

I'm not sure I follow this. 1. Diamond mentioned the rats as contributors to the deforestation; invasive species brought by humans (which the rats were) are a

I'm not sure I follow this. 1. Diamond mentioned the rats as contributors to the deforestation; invasive species brought by humans (which the rats were) are a key example of ecological destruction. 2. Going from 9000 (or possibly as many as 15,000) in the 1500s to 3000 (using the most generous pre-disease estimate) at the time of first European contact sure as hell sounds like a dramatic decline to me, and the author doesn't propose how it happened.

dogruck 9y ago
I agree with you -- I don't see the connection between the research paper about DNA and the other claims in the linked HN piece.
UncleEntity 9y ago
Well, you see, only Europeons can be responsible for their collective actions. Forever. Any other culture gets a free pass because they didn't know any better. It's the new non-racist SJW racism.
- gbrown 9y ago
  That's a pretty silly thing to say, and I really don't see the need to use such charged language.
- sctb 9y ago
  Please don't post on Hacker News unless it's civil and substantive. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
brighteyes 9y ago
I'd also add 3. It seems dubious that colonization would lead to oral histories of civil war, somehow "transferring" brutality from a foreign invader to themselves. The author doesn't seem to give a lot of credit to the locals and their own accounts of history. Those stories are often much more accurate than we think.
- justinator 9y ago
  > It seems dubious that colonization would lead to oral histories of civil war Look at Africa, and the civil wars that popped up after post-colonization. Or, I mean, look at Iraq now. When an outside government overthrows the current power, sets up their own ideal of a government, and then leaves, it usually doesn't end up well, right? There's going to be hangers-on of the old ways, they are going to be a PITA for the new system, once it's set up.
  - oh_sigh 9y ago
    The civil wars were there pre-colonization as well.
    - njarboe 9y ago
      Pre-colonization they were just wars. After Europeans drew lines and made countries, many wars became civil wars.
  - bandrami 9y ago
    They didn't "pop up" post-colonization so much as "be directly caused, funded, and orchestrated by the exiting colonial powers and their superpower patrons".
justinator 9y ago
Re: population, the article mentioned that we don't know what the population was, but a good guess is between 4,000 and 9,000. The 15,000 number mentioned isn't a guess at population, it's a theory on how many people could be sustained with the farming practices used. So if there was a drop in population it may not have been as big of a drop as 15,000 to 3,000.
- bandrami 9y ago
  Paul Bahn (he's a rock art specialist; his is the only book[1] I've read on it other than Diamond) estimated the population at 10K pre-contact, though he also theorizes there was an earlier Spanish contact than the recorded one which prompted a collapse of their belief system and tipped an already fragile society over. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Enigmas-Easter-Island-Paul-Bahn/dp/0192803409 https://www.amazon.com/Enigmas-Easter-Island-Paul-Bahn/dp/01... -- cool book. The title is tongue in cheek; he mostly is annoyed by people who don't simply apply standard archaeology and anthropology to the island and look for more complex theories than necessary.
Steko 9y ago
> the author doesn't propose how it happened. The author says quite clearly it's not clear that it happened at all: "The question ... is one we still cannot convincingly answer ... But there is no real evidence of a population decline prior to the first European contact". Also you've cherry picked the high end estimate from "4k-9k"; going from 4k to 2K-3K is far less dramatic than 9k to 2k-3k. All of these numbers are pretty shaky estimates and Roggeveen admits his 2-3K estimate may be low as they were shooting people and they did want to line up on the beach to be counted. So maybe it's 5K to 5K. Diamond's narrative of a starving people forced into cannibalism as a food source certainly doesn't fit much of the other evidence -- their bones indicate they were larger than other polynesians, not malnourished and show little evidence of being killed in battle.
- bandrami 9y ago
  Even the smallest possible population reduction is 25%. It's hard to see that and not ask for a reason.
  - Steko 9y ago
    Sorry late reply did not see. The "smallest possible" reduction is zero because the first range is quite possibly significantly low, by admission of the person who made it.

dogruck 9y ago

I agree with you -- I don't see the connection between the research paper about DNA and the other claims in the linked HN piece.

UncleEntity 9y ago

Well, you see, only Europeons can be responsible for their collective actions. Forever. Any other culture gets a free pass because they didn't know any better. It's the new non-racist SJW racism.

gbrown 9y ago
That's a pretty silly thing to say, and I really don't see the need to use such charged language.
sctb 9y ago
Please don't post on Hacker News unless it's civil and substantive. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

brighteyes 9y ago

I'd also add 3. It seems dubious that colonization would lead to oral histories of civil war, somehow "transferring" brutality from a foreign invader to themselves. The author doesn't seem to give a lot of credit to the locals and their own accounts of history. Those stories are often much more accurate than we think.

justinator 9y ago
> It seems dubious that colonization would lead to oral histories of civil war Look at Africa, and the civil wars that popped up after post-colonization. Or, I mean, look at Iraq now. When an outside government overthrows the current power, sets up their own ideal of a government, and then leaves, it usually doesn't end up well, right? There's going to be hangers-on of the old ways, they are going to be a PITA for the new system, once it's set up.
- oh_sigh 9y ago
  The civil wars were there pre-colonization as well.
  - njarboe 9y ago
    Pre-colonization they were just wars. After Europeans drew lines and made countries, many wars became civil wars.
- bandrami 9y ago
  They didn't "pop up" post-colonization so much as "be directly caused, funded, and orchestrated by the exiting colonial powers and their superpower patrons".

justinator 9y ago

Re: population, the article mentioned that we don't know what the population was, but a good guess is between 4,000 and 9,000. The 15,000 number mentioned isn't a guess at population, it's a theory on how many people could be sustained with the farming practices used. So if there was a drop in population it may not have been as big of a drop as 15,000 to 3,000.

bandrami 9y ago
Paul Bahn (he's a rock art specialist; his is the only book[1] I've read on it other than Diamond) estimated the population at 10K pre-contact, though he also theorizes there was an earlier Spanish contact than the recorded one which prompted a collapse of their belief system and tipped an already fragile society over. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Enigmas-Easter-Island-Paul-Bahn/dp/0192803409 https://www.amazon.com/Enigmas-Easter-Island-Paul-Bahn/dp/01... -- cool book. The title is tongue in cheek; he mostly is annoyed by people who don't simply apply standard archaeology and anthropology to the island and look for more complex theories than necessary.

Steko 9y ago

> the author doesn't propose how it happened. The author says quite clearly it's not clear that it happened at all: "The question ... is one we still cannot convincingly answer ... But there is no real evidence of a population decline prior to the first European contact". Also you've cherry picked the high end estimate from "4k-9k"; going from 4k to 2K-3K is far less dramatic than 9k to 2k-3k. All of these numbers are pretty shaky estimates and Roggeveen admits his 2-3K estimate may be low as they were shooting people and they did want to line up on the beach to be counted. So maybe it's 5K to 5K. Diamond's narrative of a starving people forced into cannibalism as a food source certainly doesn't fit much of the other evidence -- their bones indicate they were larger than other polynesians, not malnourished and show little evidence of being killed in battle.

bandrami 9y ago
Even the smallest possible population reduction is 25%. It's hard to see that and not ask for a reason.
- Steko 9y ago
  Sorry late reply did not see. The "smallest possible" reduction is zero because the first range is quite possibly significantly low, by admission of the person who made it.