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The only(?) good thing to come from the Trump election is that more people are slowly realizing that democracy isn't all its cracked up to be, from a systems vi

The only(?) good thing to come from the Trump election is that more people are slowly realizing that democracy isn't all its cracked up to be, from a systems view. All systems will eventually be gamed, evolution knows this very well. The only surprise here is that in this iteration of democracy the obviousness took so long. Plenty of other nations have known it for their whole democratic history. The Greeks knew it forever ago. Aristotle: > It is accepted as democratic when public offices are allocated by lot; and as oligarchic when they are filled by election. Facebook didn't do so much as it allowed more of the same and slightly revealed just how much manipulation gets attempted. If you like modern US democracy, you like the idea of everyone, no matter how stupid or easily manipulated, having a vote. You can't complain about it only when it doesn't go your way. You cannot just blame Facebook. It's not like this was the first time the two teams tried to buy an election. Look at the 2012 figures for campaign spending (per OpenSecrets): 2012 OVERALL SPENDING BLUE TEAM $1,144,965,831 RED TEAM $1,254,323,304 A couple billion spent sound like they were trying their hardest to "do something" to American Democracy.

leereeves 9y ago
There's far more manipulation and deception coming from the establishment media. For example, how many people heard that Trump removed two countries from the travel ban list (Iraq and Sudan)? The media practically ignored that. Ignoring events like that, which would show Trump in a more reasonable light, is a form of deception: a lie by omission.
- simonsarris 9y ago
  Yeah, most established media has been shameful lately. From one angle it's hard to blame them, since they are largely just trying to post stories that they know their current subscriber base wants to hear. This is even true of the NYT. There was a great comment chain on HN about it a while back (comparing the coverage from stories vs looking at what their linked sources said), but I can't find it. It was similar to coverage like this: https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2016/05/09/my-response-to-the-nytimes-article-on-school-districts-test-scores-and-income/ https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2016/05/09/my-r...
- r00fus 9y ago
  So Trump issues a travel ban unilaterally and now "eases" it? Color me unimpressed that our chocolate ration is being increased for this week!
booleandilemma 9y ago
The only(?) good thing to come from the Trump election is that more people are slowly realizing that democracy isn't all its cracked up to be The people who voted for Trump disagree with you.
- simonsarris 9y ago
  In my eyes, I mean. I thought that was obvious. I understand that plenty of people are happy that Trump is president or have yielded other good things from it.
  - leereeves 9y ago
    In a democracy, you won't always get what you want; sometimes other people win. Is that what you meant by "not all it's cracked up to be"?
    - simonsarris 9y ago
      No, I mean that the wisdom of the crowds is, well, not. Good democracy rests on voters making intelligent/rational/etc decisions (implied: otherwise why let them vote?) I think more of my liberal friends now see that this is largely wishful thinking.
      - Clubber 9y ago
        >I mean that the wisdom of the crowds is, well, not I just realized that the same crowds that can predict whether a company will do well via the stock market are the same crowds that can smash people to death against a fence. I don't think the crowds are necessarily wise, just powerful.
      - leereeves 9y ago
        The attitude that people who don't want the same things you want are stupid, unwise, or irrational seems to be very common among leftists lately. I blame The Daily Show and progeny.
humanrebar 9y ago
> ...democracy isn't all its cracked up to be... Compared to what?
- simonsarris 9y ago
  I don't know, the way successful large organizations do things? A small number of intelligent board of directors elect people who have large leeway. Shareholders can vote, but mostly on few items or for no confidence. You'd never let shareholders vote on certain things. So compared to that model. But I'm sure you could devise something even better if you sat down and thought about it for ten minutes. (What was the founding fathers idea? Only letting taxpayers or people with more than 100 acres vote? Not suggesting these, just pointing out that you have trivially many options compared to the current model)

leereeves 9y ago

There's far more manipulation and deception coming from the establishment media. For example, how many people heard that Trump removed two countries from the travel ban list (Iraq and Sudan)? The media practically ignored that. Ignoring events like that, which would show Trump in a more reasonable light, is a form of deception: a lie by omission.

simonsarris 9y ago
Yeah, most established media has been shameful lately. From one angle it's hard to blame them, since they are largely just trying to post stories that they know their current subscriber base wants to hear. This is even true of the NYT. There was a great comment chain on HN about it a while back (comparing the coverage from stories vs looking at what their linked sources said), but I can't find it. It was similar to coverage like this: https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2016/05/09/my-response-to-the-nytimes-article-on-school-districts-test-scores-and-income/ https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2016/05/09/my-r...
r00fus 9y ago
So Trump issues a travel ban unilaterally and now "eases" it? Color me unimpressed that our chocolate ration is being increased for this week!

booleandilemma 9y ago

The only(?) good thing to come from the Trump election is that more people are slowly realizing that democracy isn't all its cracked up to be The people who voted for Trump disagree with you.

simonsarris 9y ago
In my eyes, I mean. I thought that was obvious. I understand that plenty of people are happy that Trump is president or have yielded other good things from it.
- leereeves 9y ago
  In a democracy, you won't always get what you want; sometimes other people win. Is that what you meant by "not all it's cracked up to be"?
  - simonsarris 9y ago
    No, I mean that the wisdom of the crowds is, well, not. Good democracy rests on voters making intelligent/rational/etc decisions (implied: otherwise why let them vote?) I think more of my liberal friends now see that this is largely wishful thinking.
    - Clubber 9y ago
      >I mean that the wisdom of the crowds is, well, not I just realized that the same crowds that can predict whether a company will do well via the stock market are the same crowds that can smash people to death against a fence. I don't think the crowds are necessarily wise, just powerful.
    - leereeves 9y ago
      The attitude that people who don't want the same things you want are stupid, unwise, or irrational seems to be very common among leftists lately. I blame The Daily Show and progeny.

humanrebar 9y ago

> ...democracy isn't all its cracked up to be... Compared to what?

simonsarris 9y ago
I don't know, the way successful large organizations do things? A small number of intelligent board of directors elect people who have large leeway. Shareholders can vote, but mostly on few items or for no confidence. You'd never let shareholders vote on certain things. So compared to that model. But I'm sure you could devise something even better if you sat down and thought about it for ten minutes. (What was the founding fathers idea? Only letting taxpayers or people with more than 100 acres vote? Not suggesting these, just pointing out that you have trivially many options compared to the current model)