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And it is exactly this style of management that is causing problems at the German automation plant he aquired (see my comment in the duplicate thread). It is pr

And it is exactly this style of management that is causing problems at the German automation plant he aquired (see my comment in the duplicate thread). It is probably a reason why production of the Model 3 is behind -- the company he acquired builds the factory robots needed for advanced automation. Smart move to acquire it then and it explains why the timing is now off. You can't run a German plant like an American one, people will take the 30 day vacations that have been written into their contracts since before he arrived (just because you have a new boss doesn't mean the old contract is invalid), take sick days if they need them (unlimited sick days by law, they don't come out of your vacation time), and go home at 5pm because they value their home/family/free time. Last I checked the factory had at least dozens of positions open that they can't fill because no one here wants to work for them.

deleted 9y ago
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leereeves 9y ago
> [Musk] also joked to employees they would be going through “production hell” to meet demand for the new car. It sounds like taking sick days, vacation days, and going home at 5pm is exactly what Musk doesn't want from employees. Germans are fortunate to have those benefits guaranteed by law (and culture).
- koevet 9y ago
  This is not for Germany only. The majority of EU contries have similar benefits guaranteed by the law.
  - leereeves 9y ago
    The comment I replied to, however, was about Germany.
  - briandear 9y ago
    I always wondered why laws are needed to require benefits. Seems like working for someone is a consensual choice that ought be regulated by the free market itself. Other than physical safety regulations, seems like the rest of it is government overreach. It’s also weird to me that a “contract” covers “workers” rather than a contact negotiated by each worker. Seems rather Marxist to me to consider workers as interchangeable cogs in the production machine. Some guy might not care about 30 days vacation but might prefer more money, as an example.
    - sk5t 9y ago
      Because asymmetrical bargaining power, guy.
    - tdb7893 9y ago
      I think the issue is that a "free" market is a theoretical construct and not a practical one. There is a lot of asymmetry in contract negotiation and without these sorts of laws you get what we have in America, which is many people wanting more vacation time but having difficulty getting it (even software engineers who are very in demand right now will complain of not having enough vacation sometimes). From talking to Europeans I think most of them would agree that these laws make their life better and a law that makes their citizens life better pretty much across the board doesn't really seem to be huge overreach
      - closeparen 9y ago
        The 19% of youth in Europe who are unemployed don't have any of the cushy legally mandated benefits of employment there, and might be happy to forego a few to be employed at all.
        tdb7893 9y ago
        It varies a lot by country. Maybe I might have a little of a skewed view because I've talked to people mostly from Germany and The Netherlands, which both manage to have have decent labor laws and fairly low youth unemployment.
  - 2dvisio 9y ago
    And they are called Rights, not benefits.
- Nokinside 9y ago
  I think you can always get rid of workers if you are willing to pay enough. What is the maximum compensation German courts award for unlawfully firing an worker? Something like 1-4 years salary is my guess. If Musk want's to fire 2% of German workers every year, he could budget 2 - 8 percent more for his labor cost.
  - xyzzyz 9y ago
    I don't know about Germany, but in other European countries, the judge might also order you to rehire an employee in addition to the back pay and damages.
deleted 9y ago
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spatulon 9y ago
Presumably one bit of Tesla culture they can't bring to Germany is firing low performers. I worked for a German company for over a decade. I don't know if it was due to their culture or their laws, but I never saw anyone get fired for poor performance (except for failing the initial 6-month probation after joining). And it's not like we didn't have low performers — once I got into management it became quite clear that there were a handful of people who were borderline useless, but it was just accepted that they were employees, that the company should look after them just the same, and find work for them to do.
- mschuster91 9y ago
  > And it's not like we didn't have low performers — once I got into management it became quite clear that there were a handful of people who were borderline useless, but it was just accepted that they were employees, that the company should look after them just the same, and find work for them to do. In addition, courts will be siding with the employee in lots of cases, and when the company has a Betriebsrat (workers council) and the Betriebsrat sides with the employee it is next to impossible to get someone fired without serious consequences in court.
- crdoconnor 9y ago
  I've worked for companies where it was easy to fire people. There was no shortage of borderline useless people and getting fired was usually more about getting on management's nerves rather than performance. People living in fear of their jobs created the most toxic environments.
  - ak39 9y ago
    “People living in fear of their jobs created the most toxic environments.” That itself can affect your performance and motivation. Tough out there.
- Someone 9y ago
  The idea in large parts of western europe is that it is OK to fire employees who aren’t fit for their job, but that “low performing”, at best, only is a low quality indicator of the former. For example, management can stifle productivity in ways that individual workers have little influence on. Also, employees may be ‘useless’ for a while, but then improve again, for example if they are going through a divorce, the death of a relative, etc. Firing people because they perform worse for a few months is frowned upon in some circles.
wheels 9y ago
It's true that if you have 30 days of vacation that that comes from your contract, but that's a pretty standard perk with large-ish companies. The legal minimum is 24 days though [1], so that's as low as it can go. Usually after a couple years of working for a German company, you have a permanent contract, which can only be changed or revoked under cases that are also regulated by law (e.g. layoffs because of cash shortage or continued, documented underperformance). [1] http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/burlg/__3.html http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/burlg/__3.html

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

leereeves 9y ago

> [Musk] also joked to employees they would be going through “production hell” to meet demand for the new car. It sounds like taking sick days, vacation days, and going home at 5pm is exactly what Musk doesn't want from employees. Germans are fortunate to have those benefits guaranteed by law (and culture).

koevet 9y ago
This is not for Germany only. The majority of EU contries have similar benefits guaranteed by the law.
- leereeves 9y ago
  The comment I replied to, however, was about Germany.
- briandear 9y ago
  I always wondered why laws are needed to require benefits. Seems like working for someone is a consensual choice that ought be regulated by the free market itself. Other than physical safety regulations, seems like the rest of it is government overreach. It’s also weird to me that a “contract” covers “workers” rather than a contact negotiated by each worker. Seems rather Marxist to me to consider workers as interchangeable cogs in the production machine. Some guy might not care about 30 days vacation but might prefer more money, as an example.
  - sk5t 9y ago
    Because asymmetrical bargaining power, guy.
  - tdb7893 9y ago
    I think the issue is that a "free" market is a theoretical construct and not a practical one. There is a lot of asymmetry in contract negotiation and without these sorts of laws you get what we have in America, which is many people wanting more vacation time but having difficulty getting it (even software engineers who are very in demand right now will complain of not having enough vacation sometimes). From talking to Europeans I think most of them would agree that these laws make their life better and a law that makes their citizens life better pretty much across the board doesn't really seem to be huge overreach
    - closeparen 9y ago
      The 19% of youth in Europe who are unemployed don't have any of the cushy legally mandated benefits of employment there, and might be happy to forego a few to be employed at all.
      - tdb7893 9y ago
        It varies a lot by country. Maybe I might have a little of a skewed view because I've talked to people mostly from Germany and The Netherlands, which both manage to have have decent labor laws and fairly low youth unemployment.
- 2dvisio 9y ago
  And they are called Rights, not benefits.
Nokinside 9y ago
I think you can always get rid of workers if you are willing to pay enough. What is the maximum compensation German courts award for unlawfully firing an worker? Something like 1-4 years salary is my guess. If Musk want's to fire 2% of German workers every year, he could budget 2 - 8 percent more for his labor cost.
- xyzzyz 9y ago
  I don't know about Germany, but in other European countries, the judge might also order you to rehire an employee in addition to the back pay and damages.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

spatulon 9y ago

Presumably one bit of Tesla culture they can't bring to Germany is firing low performers. I worked for a German company for over a decade. I don't know if it was due to their culture or their laws, but I never saw anyone get fired for poor performance (except for failing the initial 6-month probation after joining). And it's not like we didn't have low performers — once I got into management it became quite clear that there were a handful of people who were borderline useless, but it was just accepted that they were employees, that the company should look after them just the same, and find work for them to do.

mschuster91 9y ago
> And it's not like we didn't have low performers — once I got into management it became quite clear that there were a handful of people who were borderline useless, but it was just accepted that they were employees, that the company should look after them just the same, and find work for them to do. In addition, courts will be siding with the employee in lots of cases, and when the company has a Betriebsrat (workers council) and the Betriebsrat sides with the employee it is next to impossible to get someone fired without serious consequences in court.
crdoconnor 9y ago
I've worked for companies where it was easy to fire people. There was no shortage of borderline useless people and getting fired was usually more about getting on management's nerves rather than performance. People living in fear of their jobs created the most toxic environments.
- ak39 9y ago
  “People living in fear of their jobs created the most toxic environments.” That itself can affect your performance and motivation. Tough out there.
Someone 9y ago
The idea in large parts of western europe is that it is OK to fire employees who aren’t fit for their job, but that “low performing”, at best, only is a low quality indicator of the former. For example, management can stifle productivity in ways that individual workers have little influence on. Also, employees may be ‘useless’ for a while, but then improve again, for example if they are going through a divorce, the death of a relative, etc. Firing people because they perform worse for a few months is frowned upon in some circles.

wheels 9y ago

It's true that if you have 30 days of vacation that that comes from your contract, but that's a pretty standard perk with large-ish companies. The legal minimum is 24 days though [1], so that's as low as it can go. Usually after a couple years of working for a German company, you have a permanent contract, which can only be changed or revoked under cases that are also regulated by law (e.g. layoffs because of cash shortage or continued, documented underperformance). [1] http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/burlg/__3.html http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/burlg/__3.html