7 ms·

I know someone who just got fired in this round at Tesla. His manager never communicated to him that he was a bad performer. He was not on a PIP or any performa

by dmode 9y ago

I know someone who just got fired in this round at Tesla. His manager never communicated to him that he was a bad performer. He was not on a PIP or any performance plans. He was also working on Model 3. One fine morning his manager called him and said this would be his last day. He is a single income earner and was so shocked by this news that he is getting borderline depressed. They offered only 2 weeks of severance.

viraptor 9y ago
Do you know if the severance was based on time worked so far, or 2 weeks for everybody? But yeah, this is terrible. If you don't expect you're going to be fired for bad performance, that's a company's failure, not yours.
- dmode 9y ago
  He worked for 2 years. I am not sure what severance is based on. Also, with this article, Tesla pretty much trashed every employee they fired by publicly saying they are bad performers. Imagine finding a job now that you have been labelled a poor performer
  - dennisgorelik 9y ago
    They are bad performers for Tesla. That does not mean they are bad performers for other companies. The acceptance threshold at Tesla could be at a very different level.
metaphor 9y ago
> I know someone who just got fired in this round at Tesla. ... They offered only 2 weeks of severance. Fired or layed off? I've never experienced either, but I always thought severance pay was exclusive to the latter.
- dmode 9y ago
  I am not sure of the difference between firing and laying off. Manager basically said that today is last day, bring in your equipment etc
  - richman777 9y ago
    Typically you’re fired when you do something bad. I wouldn’t consider what Tesla did as firing anyone. Poor performance isn’t typically a “bad thing” in this sense. For instance, if someone went and pissed in the coffee pot, they would be fired. If a big group of people were simply told to not come in anymore it’s laid off. Tesla specifically said this wasn’t laying people off so I’m not sure how that works. I don’t know if there’s any legal or contractual grounds for one or the other but I’d guess it would matter what state you’re in. I know for a lot of states collecting unemployment benefits does require some sort of reason for termination that is related to the above distinction.
- ehnto 9y ago
  I thing the difference you are thinking of is when someone is being made redundant versus being fired. Being fired implies the employee failed in some way. Being made redundant implies the company changed in such a way that the employee is no longer needed. Being made redundant tends to be the situation that attracts a severance package of any significance. Depending entirely on the country and state of course.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- analog31 9y ago
  If you're fired for doing something bad, then you become ineligible for unemployment compensation (which is something you earned) and some other benefits. This creates a perverse incentive to claim a cause for termination. On the other hand, it also creates an incentive for the fired employee to sue, especially if they think that the employer didn't have an utterly bulletproof paper trail and discipline procedures. For this reason, it's sometimes more practical for a company to terminate someone without cause, and just pay out the benefits as a cost of doing business. They can wait for a slow season, when they would normally shed some workers, and terminate the lowest performers. Companies avoid the term "layoff" because it has connotations, such as eligibility to be re-hired when conditions improve. So they use "reduction in force" instead. The people who are fired are "impacted," and so forth. The terminology used doesn't mean anything... what matters is whether someone was terminated "with cause" or not.
  - noitsnot 9y ago
    It varies by state, but you can collect unemployment a lot of the time if you have been fired.
    - tyingq 9y ago
      In California, unemployment is a maximum of $450 a week for 26 weeks. Still helpful, but ~$11/hour is a pretty big drop for most of them.
      - analog31 9y ago
        Indeed, it's not a lot, but I figure, you earned it so you might as well collect it.
- acomjean 9y ago
  At least in my state (MA) a while ago being fired with cause means not eligible for unemployment[1]. I knew this from someone (last century) being fired for being overheard quoting "office space" the movie on the phone, and therefor suspected of being dangerous. He was not given a chance to defend himself, but hated the job anyway. "PETER Boy. I tell ya, one of these days... One of these days it's gonna be like He mimics a machine gun. Brian, a waiter, does it too, in Peter's face." He went to hearing to get his unemployment, and won because the layer from bigco, sent to the hearing from out of state literally wouldn't answer any questions. http://www.masslegalhelp.org/employment-unemployment/ui-if-fired http://www.masslegalhelp.org/employment-unemployment/ui-if-f...
jwdunne 9y ago
I think firing without giving warnings and opportunity to improve is sick. These people don't even know they were doing badly. I can't tell if they've been told where they screwed up. These people could be spending a lot of time figuring out what went wrong when everything seemed to be going fine. They don't deserve that, regardless of performance. They are people, they have lives and it wasn't anything like gross misconduct. I think Mr Musk has a lot to answer for.
- walterbell 9y ago
  Some countries have laws requiring notice and time for a performance improvement period, before final termination of employment.
  - koevet 9y ago
    Yes, in Switzerland, for instance, a company is required to offer "job relocation" services for employees that have been working for the company for some years (I'm not sure how many exactly). These services (re-teach how to write a CV, how to prepare yourself for an interview, etc.) cost between 10K and 14K CHF per employee.
    - jaimex2 9y ago
      I'm in Australia and something like this seems very weird, you sometimes take for granted fair work laws till you see what happens in countries without them.
      - mcny 9y ago
        When I read about pip, I keep going back to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11299310 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11299310 I think even if we had regulations and requirements like that in the US, it would quickly devolve into a charade. Basically, a six month pip would be the same as a six month notice with the option to fire you any time anyway.
stock_toaster 9y ago
I worked at a bigco during a RIF (reduction in force), and underperforming /teams/ or even /sections/ had their management told, “your team underperformed — fire X number of lowest performers”. Then the manager was effectively forced to just pick people to let go. Shitty, but par for the course for many bigco places (outside tech), from what I have heard over the years.
- tyingq 9y ago
  It's often not underperformers. Just "pick x% of your team"
- WillReplyfFood 9y ago
  So its, pick the least social performers, false friends and in-efficient co worker backstabbers.
- wpietri 9y ago
  I was consulting once for a large company when one of those came down. A manager I was working with really cared about his team, and it bothered him that he had to lay off one person for basically no good reason besides corporate politicking. He pushed against it for a while, but when they wouldn't relent, he laid himself off. That didn't totally make sense, as they still had to find a manager for his team. But since the whole layoff was arbitrary, it didn't have to make sense. His whole team stayed. I always thought it was a baller move. And looking at LinkedIn, he's had a solid career since, so it clearly didn't hurt him any.
alphaalpha101 9y ago
You know there's a reason why doing that is illegal in the entire developed world outside the USA.
simonsarris 9y ago
What kind of role was the person in? Were they former SolarCity or Tesla Motors? Can you give us any other details?
thereisnospork 9y ago
without commenting on the unfairness -- as an employee, if you aren't prepared for this to happen to you, then you are doing yourself a disservice and are improperly managing your finances. Any and all of us can, and some will be, 'fired' for less with less.
- dmitriid 9y ago
  If you are an employee in the States, that is. There’s a mandatory three-month notice period in Sweden, so that the person who is fired (or sho leaves) has the time to find a new job
  - kryptiskt 9y ago
    That three month notice period when leaving is a hassle for employees, being a lame duck is no fun.
    - classybull 9y ago
      Better than being a broke duck.
      - brianwawok 9y ago
        If you save some of your paycheck no need to be broke
        mschuster91 9y ago
        Good luck being able to actually save some of your paycheck. I, for example, cannot because the rents here are shockingly high.
        brianwawok 9y ago
        Then move!
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
nextlevelwizard 9y ago
>They offered only 2 weeks of severance. It sucks for him, but I hope he learns in future not to sign bad contracts. A day's notice and 2 weeks severance is super bad and I would not have signed it unless the pay was extremely good, as in so good I wouldn't have to worry about getting another job straight away. EDIT: based on the downvotes many people here could use this advice: DO NOT SIGN BAD CONTRACTS!
- dmode 9y ago
  The downvotes are probably due to the fact that there are no contracts in the states. It is at will employment
  - nextlevelwizard 9y ago
    LOL no wonder things are so fucked up around there. In rest of the civilized world unions and contracts keep work force safe. Here it is literally illegal to do what happened for the OP's friend (unless he had been employed for less than 12 months).
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- tyingq 9y ago
  Not everyone is in a position to negotiate terms. Very few in the US would have that kind of leverage.
  - nextlevelwizard 9y ago
    That is pretty common, dare I say almost a human right. It is suddenly becoming clear to me why people in America hate capitalism. I just thought it was bunch of lazy fucks who didn't want to work, but if you are regularly allowing employers to get away with shit like this, then it's no wonder.
    - 9y ago
throwingerman 9y ago
I don't know if this helps your friend but I know BMW in Munich is hiring. A lot of departments are fine with English speakers. I found a couple of examples for him if they are useful: https://recruiting.bmwgroup.de/ibs/Servlets/ibs/controller/satellit?event=__activate_and_reset&target=smstelleanzeigen&stellenreferenz=426c6f161ac1909c7ae9c9a4f25387b58b5bbd3311ca49b8&anzeige=veroeffentlichung https://recruiting.bmwgroup.de/ibs/Servlets/ibs/controller/s... https://recruiting.bmwgroup.de/ibs/Servlets/ibs/controller/satellit?event=__activate_and_reset&target=smstelleanzeigen&stellenreferenz=5962e5c770329c137f277cf33c9ce153106a58afc41d302e&anzeige=veroeffentlichung https://recruiting.bmwgroup.de/ibs/Servlets/ibs/controller/s... I'm sure Mercedes and Audi would also have similar openings.
inferiorhuman 9y ago
From the article, some folks are claiming that the firings were around attempts at organizing a union: > Openly pro-union workers were among those fired this week. Some believe they were targeted.
- dmode 9y ago
  He works in a white collar job. So, unlikely to be "pro union".
  - donarb 9y ago
    There are plenty of white collar unions. Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace (SPEEA) for one.
danmaz74 9y ago
No notice and 2 weeks severance? Moreover, I guess, no health insurance while looking for work? Wow, I don't think any other rich country could find this acceptable.

by dmode 9y ago

viraptor 9y ago

Do you know if the severance was based on time worked so far, or 2 weeks for everybody? But yeah, this is terrible. If you don't expect you're going to be fired for bad performance, that's a company's failure, not yours.

dmode 9y ago
He worked for 2 years. I am not sure what severance is based on. Also, with this article, Tesla pretty much trashed every employee they fired by publicly saying they are bad performers. Imagine finding a job now that you have been labelled a poor performer
- dennisgorelik 9y ago
  They are bad performers for Tesla. That does not mean they are bad performers for other companies. The acceptance threshold at Tesla could be at a very different level.

metaphor 9y ago

> I know someone who just got fired in this round at Tesla. ... They offered only 2 weeks of severance. Fired or layed off? I've never experienced either, but I always thought severance pay was exclusive to the latter.

dmode 9y ago
I am not sure of the difference between firing and laying off. Manager basically said that today is last day, bring in your equipment etc
- richman777 9y ago
  Typically you’re fired when you do something bad. I wouldn’t consider what Tesla did as firing anyone. Poor performance isn’t typically a “bad thing” in this sense. For instance, if someone went and pissed in the coffee pot, they would be fired. If a big group of people were simply told to not come in anymore it’s laid off. Tesla specifically said this wasn’t laying people off so I’m not sure how that works. I don’t know if there’s any legal or contractual grounds for one or the other but I’d guess it would matter what state you’re in. I know for a lot of states collecting unemployment benefits does require some sort of reason for termination that is related to the above distinction.
ehnto 9y ago
I thing the difference you are thinking of is when someone is being made redundant versus being fired. Being fired implies the employee failed in some way. Being made redundant implies the company changed in such a way that the employee is no longer needed. Being made redundant tends to be the situation that attracts a severance package of any significance. Depending entirely on the country and state of course.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
analog31 9y ago
If you're fired for doing something bad, then you become ineligible for unemployment compensation (which is something you earned) and some other benefits. This creates a perverse incentive to claim a cause for termination. On the other hand, it also creates an incentive for the fired employee to sue, especially if they think that the employer didn't have an utterly bulletproof paper trail and discipline procedures. For this reason, it's sometimes more practical for a company to terminate someone without cause, and just pay out the benefits as a cost of doing business. They can wait for a slow season, when they would normally shed some workers, and terminate the lowest performers. Companies avoid the term "layoff" because it has connotations, such as eligibility to be re-hired when conditions improve. So they use "reduction in force" instead. The people who are fired are "impacted," and so forth. The terminology used doesn't mean anything... what matters is whether someone was terminated "with cause" or not.
- noitsnot 9y ago
  It varies by state, but you can collect unemployment a lot of the time if you have been fired.
  - tyingq 9y ago
    In California, unemployment is a maximum of $450 a week for 26 weeks. Still helpful, but ~$11/hour is a pretty big drop for most of them.
    - analog31 9y ago
      Indeed, it's not a lot, but I figure, you earned it so you might as well collect it.
acomjean 9y ago
At least in my state (MA) a while ago being fired with cause means not eligible for unemployment[1]. I knew this from someone (last century) being fired for being overheard quoting "office space" the movie on the phone, and therefor suspected of being dangerous. He was not given a chance to defend himself, but hated the job anyway. "PETER Boy. I tell ya, one of these days... One of these days it's gonna be like He mimics a machine gun. Brian, a waiter, does it too, in Peter's face." He went to hearing to get his unemployment, and won because the layer from bigco, sent to the hearing from out of state literally wouldn't answer any questions. http://www.masslegalhelp.org/employment-unemployment/ui-if-fired http://www.masslegalhelp.org/employment-unemployment/ui-if-f...

jwdunne 9y ago

I think firing without giving warnings and opportunity to improve is sick. These people don't even know they were doing badly. I can't tell if they've been told where they screwed up. These people could be spending a lot of time figuring out what went wrong when everything seemed to be going fine. They don't deserve that, regardless of performance. They are people, they have lives and it wasn't anything like gross misconduct. I think Mr Musk has a lot to answer for.

walterbell 9y ago
Some countries have laws requiring notice and time for a performance improvement period, before final termination of employment.
- koevet 9y ago
  Yes, in Switzerland, for instance, a company is required to offer "job relocation" services for employees that have been working for the company for some years (I'm not sure how many exactly). These services (re-teach how to write a CV, how to prepare yourself for an interview, etc.) cost between 10K and 14K CHF per employee.
  - jaimex2 9y ago
    I'm in Australia and something like this seems very weird, you sometimes take for granted fair work laws till you see what happens in countries without them.
    - mcny 9y ago
      When I read about pip, I keep going back to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11299310 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11299310 I think even if we had regulations and requirements like that in the US, it would quickly devolve into a charade. Basically, a six month pip would be the same as a six month notice with the option to fire you any time anyway.

stock_toaster 9y ago

I worked at a bigco during a RIF (reduction in force), and underperforming /teams/ or even /sections/ had their management told, “your team underperformed — fire X number of lowest performers”. Then the manager was effectively forced to just pick people to let go. Shitty, but par for the course for many bigco places (outside tech), from what I have heard over the years.

tyingq 9y ago
It's often not underperformers. Just "pick x% of your team"
WillReplyfFood 9y ago
So its, pick the least social performers, false friends and in-efficient co worker backstabbers.
wpietri 9y ago
I was consulting once for a large company when one of those came down. A manager I was working with really cared about his team, and it bothered him that he had to lay off one person for basically no good reason besides corporate politicking. He pushed against it for a while, but when they wouldn't relent, he laid himself off. That didn't totally make sense, as they still had to find a manager for his team. But since the whole layoff was arbitrary, it didn't have to make sense. His whole team stayed. I always thought it was a baller move. And looking at LinkedIn, he's had a solid career since, so it clearly didn't hurt him any.

alphaalpha101 9y ago

You know there's a reason why doing that is illegal in the entire developed world outside the USA.

simonsarris 9y ago

What kind of role was the person in? Were they former SolarCity or Tesla Motors? Can you give us any other details?

thereisnospork 9y ago

without commenting on the unfairness -- as an employee, if you aren't prepared for this to happen to you, then you are doing yourself a disservice and are improperly managing your finances. Any and all of us can, and some will be, 'fired' for less with less.

dmitriid 9y ago
If you are an employee in the States, that is. There’s a mandatory three-month notice period in Sweden, so that the person who is fired (or sho leaves) has the time to find a new job
- kryptiskt 9y ago
  That three month notice period when leaving is a hassle for employees, being a lame duck is no fun.
  - classybull 9y ago
    Better than being a broke duck.
    - brianwawok 9y ago
      If you save some of your paycheck no need to be broke
      - mschuster91 9y ago
        Good luck being able to actually save some of your paycheck. I, for example, cannot because the rents here are shockingly high.
        brianwawok 9y ago
        Then move!

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

nextlevelwizard 9y ago

>They offered only 2 weeks of severance. It sucks for him, but I hope he learns in future not to sign bad contracts. A day's notice and 2 weeks severance is super bad and I would not have signed it unless the pay was extremely good, as in so good I wouldn't have to worry about getting another job straight away. EDIT: based on the downvotes many people here could use this advice: DO NOT SIGN BAD CONTRACTS!

dmode 9y ago
The downvotes are probably due to the fact that there are no contracts in the states. It is at will employment
- nextlevelwizard 9y ago
  LOL no wonder things are so fucked up around there. In rest of the civilized world unions and contracts keep work force safe. Here it is literally illegal to do what happened for the OP's friend (unless he had been employed for less than 12 months).
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
tyingq 9y ago
Not everyone is in a position to negotiate terms. Very few in the US would have that kind of leverage.
- nextlevelwizard 9y ago
  That is pretty common, dare I say almost a human right. It is suddenly becoming clear to me why people in America hate capitalism. I just thought it was bunch of lazy fucks who didn't want to work, but if you are regularly allowing employers to get away with shit like this, then it's no wonder.
  - 9y ago

throwingerman 9y ago

I don't know if this helps your friend but I know BMW in Munich is hiring. A lot of departments are fine with English speakers. I found a couple of examples for him if they are useful: https://recruiting.bmwgroup.de/ibs/Servlets/ibs/controller/satellit?event=__activate_and_reset&target=smstelleanzeigen&stellenreferenz=426c6f161ac1909c7ae9c9a4f25387b58b5bbd3311ca49b8&anzeige=veroeffentlichung https://recruiting.bmwgroup.de/ibs/Servlets/ibs/controller/s... https://recruiting.bmwgroup.de/ibs/Servlets/ibs/controller/satellit?event=__activate_and_reset&target=smstelleanzeigen&stellenreferenz=5962e5c770329c137f277cf33c9ce153106a58afc41d302e&anzeige=veroeffentlichung https://recruiting.bmwgroup.de/ibs/Servlets/ibs/controller/s... I'm sure Mercedes and Audi would also have similar openings.

inferiorhuman 9y ago

From the article, some folks are claiming that the firings were around attempts at organizing a union: > Openly pro-union workers were among those fired this week. Some believe they were targeted.

dmode 9y ago
He works in a white collar job. So, unlikely to be "pro union".
- donarb 9y ago
  There are plenty of white collar unions. Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace (SPEEA) for one.

danmaz74 9y ago

No notice and 2 weeks severance? Moreover, I guess, no health insurance while looking for work? Wow, I don't think any other rich country could find this acceptable.