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This statement implies that effectiveness is more important than moral implications.

mikeash 9y ago
If your goal is to get people to stop torturing, I would personally value effectiveness at getting them to stop above all else.
GhostVII 9y ago
To someone who is morally OK with torture, it is much easier to convince them to stop by saying it is ineffective than by trying to change their morals.
- darpa_escapee 9y ago
  Yes, but then they can pull out the ticking time bomb scenario and confuse plausible justification with efficacy.
WalterSear 9y ago
By definition it is, to people who advocate torture.
bluesroo 9y ago
If the effectiveness is high enough, then for some people it could be as, or more, important. To create a overly ideal example as a counterpoint: There is a WMD of some sort hidden in a major city center. We have captured and are 100% sure that the head people who did the planning and planting of the WMD are in our custody. We have a morally reprehensible, but 100% effective torture method. 1. It is guaranteed that these people know the exact information. 2. Tens of thousands or more will be harmed or killed if it is not disarmed. 3. These people are the reason why the WMD is there to begin with. In this case I think that taking more drastic measures would be justified.
- michaelmrose 9y ago
  This is a 1 in a million special case that will almost certainly never happen. We can't embed such cases in our law without drastically undermining our laws, our justice, and our morality. If this ever does come to pass and the lives of 10's of thousands are at stake I suppose you do it anyway in violation of the law and take the punishment knowing that your sacrifice prevents greater injustice and evil.
  - ansible 9y ago
    If this ever does come to pass and the lives of 10's of thousands are at stake I suppose you do it anyway in violation of the law and take the punishment knowing that your sacrifice prevents greater injustice and evil. Yes, exactly. Legislating torture as a practice is not necessary or desirable. If such a perfect "pro-torture" situation does occur, Any True Patriot (TM) should be glad to face a lifetime of imprisonment (for torturing the totally-for-sure-did-it-bad-guy) as a tradeoff for saving thousands of lives. In the real world, with much more common situations, we do not want people being tortured on a routine basis.

If your goal is to get people to stop torturing, I would personally value effectiveness at getting them to stop above all else.

GhostVII 9y ago

To someone who is morally OK with torture, it is much easier to convince them to stop by saying it is ineffective than by trying to change their morals.

darpa_escapee 9y ago
Yes, but then they can pull out the ticking time bomb scenario and confuse plausible justification with efficacy.

WalterSear 9y ago

By definition it is, to people who advocate torture.

bluesroo 9y ago

If the effectiveness is high enough, then for some people it could be as, or more, important. To create a overly ideal example as a counterpoint: There is a WMD of some sort hidden in a major city center. We have captured and are 100% sure that the head people who did the planning and planting of the WMD are in our custody. We have a morally reprehensible, but 100% effective torture method. 1. It is guaranteed that these people know the exact information. 2. Tens of thousands or more will be harmed or killed if it is not disarmed. 3. These people are the reason why the WMD is there to begin with. In this case I think that taking more drastic measures would be justified.

michaelmrose 9y ago
This is a 1 in a million special case that will almost certainly never happen. We can't embed such cases in our law without drastically undermining our laws, our justice, and our morality. If this ever does come to pass and the lives of 10's of thousands are at stake I suppose you do it anyway in violation of the law and take the punishment knowing that your sacrifice prevents greater injustice and evil.
- ansible 9y ago
  If this ever does come to pass and the lives of 10's of thousands are at stake I suppose you do it anyway in violation of the law and take the punishment knowing that your sacrifice prevents greater injustice and evil. Yes, exactly. Legislating torture as a practice is not necessary or desirable. If such a perfect "pro-torture" situation does occur, Any True Patriot (TM) should be glad to face a lifetime of imprisonment (for torturing the totally-for-sure-did-it-bad-guy) as a tradeoff for saving thousands of lives. In the real world, with much more common situations, we do not want people being tortured on a routine basis.