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If we're thinking about this purely scientifically (ignoring the ethics for a moment) then you're asking the wrong question. The question is not "does torture

If we're thinking about this purely scientifically (ignoring the ethics for a moment) then you're asking the wrong question. The question is not "does torture work". The question is "which techniques get the interviewee to honestly reveal what they do (or don't) know". Or to put it another way, the relative results should be your focus.

edanm 9y ago
That's a good point. One of the reasons that I semi-assume that torture works, is that there are security agencies that continue to use it. That also means they choose to use torture versus other means, although there, you could argue that they're doing it as a time/cost-saving measure, and that you could theoretically get similar results with more work. That's actually a pretty strong argument against my "I assume it works because it's used" argument.
- c22 9y ago
  Maybe it "works" on some other metric that is being selected for. Masturbation "works", but not if you're trying to have a kid.
  - LanceH 9y ago
    Generally the people saying it doesn't work all claim that a person will say anything under duress. While this is true, interrogation is generally not done in a complete vacuum. The interrogator will know things that can help determine whether the target is lying or not. If he confirms things you know but he doesn't know you know, you're probably on the right track. It's never like in the movies where they just ask, "Who's in charge?" and ratchet up the torture until the guy answers. That would have near zero intel value. We also talk about torture as a binary. There is really a whole range from mild discomfort to extreme pain, injury and threat of death. There is a whole range of activities to debate whether they are torture. Is threat alone torture? Some have committed suicide while facing legal threats alone. Others shrug off mere threats as just talk -- demonstrative torture could make those threats real to some and thus work. On the flip side, the consensus (30 years ago anyway) was that if you're captured, you're going to give up everything when faced with torture, so go ahead and do so, just try to hold on for 24 hours before you do.
    - michaelmrose 9y ago
      If a reasonably person has to ask is this torture its probably torture.
      - f137 9y ago
        What is a reasonably person?
        michaelmrose 9y ago
        A common ethical standard.
        michaelmrose 9y ago
        That ought to have been reasonable thanks.
- roywiggins 9y ago
  There are a thousand and one reasons why organizations do things that don't work.
- michaelmrose 9y ago
  Assuming its worked because its used is circular reasoning that could be used to justify ANYTHING. Its also amazingly pretending our government is remotely competent.

edanm 9y ago

That's a good point. One of the reasons that I semi-assume that torture works, is that there are security agencies that continue to use it. That also means they choose to use torture versus other means, although there, you could argue that they're doing it as a time/cost-saving measure, and that you could theoretically get similar results with more work. That's actually a pretty strong argument against my "I assume it works because it's used" argument.

c22 9y ago
Maybe it "works" on some other metric that is being selected for. Masturbation "works", but not if you're trying to have a kid.
- LanceH 9y ago
  Generally the people saying it doesn't work all claim that a person will say anything under duress. While this is true, interrogation is generally not done in a complete vacuum. The interrogator will know things that can help determine whether the target is lying or not. If he confirms things you know but he doesn't know you know, you're probably on the right track. It's never like in the movies where they just ask, "Who's in charge?" and ratchet up the torture until the guy answers. That would have near zero intel value. We also talk about torture as a binary. There is really a whole range from mild discomfort to extreme pain, injury and threat of death. There is a whole range of activities to debate whether they are torture. Is threat alone torture? Some have committed suicide while facing legal threats alone. Others shrug off mere threats as just talk -- demonstrative torture could make those threats real to some and thus work. On the flip side, the consensus (30 years ago anyway) was that if you're captured, you're going to give up everything when faced with torture, so go ahead and do so, just try to hold on for 24 hours before you do.
  - michaelmrose 9y ago
    If a reasonably person has to ask is this torture its probably torture.
    - f137 9y ago
      What is a reasonably person?
      - michaelmrose 9y ago
        A common ethical standard.
      - michaelmrose 9y ago
        That ought to have been reasonable thanks.
roywiggins 9y ago
There are a thousand and one reasons why organizations do things that don't work.
michaelmrose 9y ago
Assuming its worked because its used is circular reasoning that could be used to justify ANYTHING. Its also amazingly pretending our government is remotely competent.