4 ms·

I submitted this link before I had watched the whole thing. As someone who has only dabbled in Clojure I think there are a lot of interesting ideas in there but

by kasbah 9y ago

I submitted this link before I had watched the whole thing. As someone who has only dabbled in Clojure I think there are a lot of interesting ideas in there but found the type-system bashing pretty off-putting. I am now watching his "Simple Made Easy" talk [1] after I have heard it recommended on a few functional programming related podcasts. Again really interesting stuff but I encountered another cheap shot at typed functional programming ("You can't use monads for that! Hurr hurr hurr"). Given how well received these talks seem to be by people that enjoy programming with advanced type systems I would have have really expected a more balanced discussion and some acknowledgement of the trade-offs between dynamic and statically typed functional programming. [1]: https://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy https://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy

hellofunk 9y ago
The new Conj talk is certainly an interesting look at one man's (or one community's) look at static typing. However, as much as I admire Rich, some of the points he made don't resonate with me, particularly the one about how compile-time checks to catch minor bugs in syntax are not a particularly useful feature of static typing. I certainly disagree. As someone who writes Clojure all day long right now for a living, I am constantly dealing with runtime errors that are due to minor typos in my code that I have to track down, and this time would be greatly saved by having a compiler tell me "on line 23 you looked for :foo keyword in a map but you meant to type :foobar, so that's why that was nil" and many other similar woes. I love Clojure but I really miss static type checks. The other item in his talk I do not agree with, he says (slightly paraphrasing) "in static typing, you can pattern match on something 500 times but if you add a case, you have to update those 500 matches to handle the new case, when really they don't care about this new case, only the new logic needs to consume this special case, it's better for the producer to speak directly to the consumer". Well, in languages like OCaml, Swift, Haskell, it is a feature that pattern matches much be exhaustive. This prevents bugs. In most cases, I'd expect that if I add a case to an enum, the chances are good my existing logic in pattern matches should know about that. Maybe not all, but a lot of them will. It's nice to have the compiler guide you to those places. I certainly like how fast I can write programs in Clojure, and I like the minimal amount of code that makes refactoring and rewriting fairly straightforward since there is not a lot of time investment in the existing number of lines, and I like the incredible elegance of Clojure's approach to functional programming. But I do miss having much greater compiler assitance with typos, mis-typed argument order to functions, mis-typed keyword names, etc. Would really save a lot of time.
- keymone 9y ago
  > As someone who writes Clojure all day long right now for a living, I am constantly dealing with runtime errors that are due to minor typos in my code that I have to track down, and this time would be greatly saved by having a compiler tell me "on line 23 you looked for :foo keyword in a map but you meant to type :foobar, so that's why that was nil" and many other similar woes. i wonder if this is because it really takes a quantum leap in one's development style between <insert your previous programming language> and clojure/<insert your favourite lisp>? as long as your environment allows for effortless evaluation of code you're writing, you'd be getting this feedback no slower than the edit/save/compile/retry cycle.
  - hellofunk 9y ago
    If your typos are triggered by UI events, then you often won't see these problems until interacting with your UI (I work mainly in Clojurescript). Further, these typos may not get noticed at all for a long time if a code path is never taken. Of course, that's what unit tests are for. But writing tests takes time also. I'm not sure it's worth the trade off to spend the time writing those tests that I could spend writing in a more statically-typed language that would catch some things that tests wouldn't be needed for. (Besides, writing tests for UI stuff is pretty hard). I am griping, really, because I cannot stress enough how nice it feels most of the time to write Clojurescript. But in complex projects, there is not doubt that a lot of time gets spent on things that wouldn't need to be spent if the language had even a very basic type system to back up the syntax for some things.
    - keymone 9y ago
      which ui library are you using? not claiming to be an expert, but i always found it easier to test programs when logic is completely decoupled from event flow. but yeah, UI can be pita. also isn't clojure.spec useful for describing and asserting the shape of data taken and returned by functions?
      - hellofunk 9y ago
gldalmaso 9y ago
I really like Rich's views and find Clojure very interesting as well. That said, as a Java shop with Javascript frontend, nowadays the bulk of complexity in our code base seems to accumulate in the frontend due to mixed skill levels of the team and lack of opinionated structure in the language. This leads to some rather messy code that even skilled devs are afraid to touch because of lack of feedback from the IDE that some refactor is working without loose ends. The same problem with the same people just doesn't happen in the backend and I link that to static typing and IDE maturity. We have started to adopt Typescript and are seeing improvements already. We just have to live with the fact not all developers working in the code are mature enough to avoid language and code organization pitfalls. Refactoring should be mostly a safe endeavor, even if only structurally. This is the main reason I wouldn't suggest Clojure for our team.
- hellofunk 9y ago
  I agree that there is definitely added discipline needed to succeed well in large dynamically-typed projects. I also think that learning to build large projects in such languages is like running your marathon training high in the mountains, so when you get back to sea-level your body feels the joy. You are forced to write very clean code in Clojure if you want to easily maintain it later. That's a great skill that translates to any other language where less discipline might still get you far.
- lilactown 9y ago
  I think it's something else, as well. Rich even mentions it in his talk: languages like Java (which I'm reading to mean "statically typed") are great at mechanical tasks. Front end programming is mostly filled with mechanical tasks: scaffold this structure/layout. Wire up these events. Make this thing blue/bold/etc. Change the state when these events happen. It's fairly predictable in structure in line-of-business apps, at least once you're following an intelligent structure, e.g. the Elm architecture. UI/Front end dev, IMO, can gain quite a bit from static typing. I'm a huge fan of clojurescript, it's what I reach for whenever I want to work on something, but I'm super excited about ReasonML for the future of my team; we struggle with our JavaScript code base right now due to the lack of imposed structure and feedback for our weaker developers. I love Clojure and I think it makes sense in a lot of domains; most of my back end development is "take this data, transform it according to some nebulous business rules, and poop it out to some other place," which Clojure is amazing for. It's great for applications that don't require a lot of "wiring", and require a lot of "flow". UI programming is, for the most part, wiring things up. It's not that Clojure/Script is not up to the task (I think e.g. re-frame, and the stuff being done with Fulcro, is amazing) but I definitely see the benefits of static typing more in that domain. And like Rich said, if you're doing UI it will usually completely dominate the problem space you're working in. So pick the right tool for the job. I'm not convinced TypeScript is the way exactly, but like I said, ReasonML and Elm are super promising.
joncampbelldev 9y ago
I believe the quote you're referencing about monads is "this is meant to lull you into believing everything I say is true, because I can't use monads for that" (referring to an animation of a stick figure juggling)
whalesalad 9y ago
Gotta take the good with the bad. Tons of knowledge and wisdom to be gained from the FP folks but sometimes they do have the cheap shots and the bias of the community. Ie, It’s easy to hate and joke about things like SQL databases and JSON when you live in your own utopian fairy land where everything is Datomic and EDN.
sheepmullet 9y ago
> but found the type-system bashing pretty off-putting. Why do you think it is type system bashing? He is justifying why he didn't add types to Clojure. In his experience they add more complexity than they are worth. The reason he talks about it at all is there are a lot of static typing enthusiasts who talk about static typing being a game changer. In my experience static typing is a +-2-3% productivity influencer. You get a bit better IDE experience and refactoring is easier. On the other hand I've also found I need to refactor my C# code far more often than my Clojure code.

by kasbah 9y ago

hellofunk 9y ago

The new Conj talk is certainly an interesting look at one man's (or one community's) look at static typing. However, as much as I admire Rich, some of the points he made don't resonate with me, particularly the one about how compile-time checks to catch minor bugs in syntax are not a particularly useful feature of static typing. I certainly disagree. As someone who writes Clojure all day long right now for a living, I am constantly dealing with runtime errors that are due to minor typos in my code that I have to track down, and this time would be greatly saved by having a compiler tell me "on line 23 you looked for :foo keyword in a map but you meant to type :foobar, so that's why that was nil" and many other similar woes. I love Clojure but I really miss static type checks. The other item in his talk I do not agree with, he says (slightly paraphrasing) "in static typing, you can pattern match on something 500 times but if you add a case, you have to update those 500 matches to handle the new case, when really they don't care about this new case, only the new logic needs to consume this special case, it's better for the producer to speak directly to the consumer". Well, in languages like OCaml, Swift, Haskell, it is a feature that pattern matches much be exhaustive. This prevents bugs. In most cases, I'd expect that if I add a case to an enum, the chances are good my existing logic in pattern matches should know about that. Maybe not all, but a lot of them will. It's nice to have the compiler guide you to those places. I certainly like how fast I can write programs in Clojure, and I like the minimal amount of code that makes refactoring and rewriting fairly straightforward since there is not a lot of time investment in the existing number of lines, and I like the incredible elegance of Clojure's approach to functional programming. But I do miss having much greater compiler assitance with typos, mis-typed argument order to functions, mis-typed keyword names, etc. Would really save a lot of time.

keymone 9y ago
> As someone who writes Clojure all day long right now for a living, I am constantly dealing with runtime errors that are due to minor typos in my code that I have to track down, and this time would be greatly saved by having a compiler tell me "on line 23 you looked for :foo keyword in a map but you meant to type :foobar, so that's why that was nil" and many other similar woes. i wonder if this is because it really takes a quantum leap in one's development style between <insert your previous programming language> and clojure/<insert your favourite lisp>? as long as your environment allows for effortless evaluation of code you're writing, you'd be getting this feedback no slower than the edit/save/compile/retry cycle.
- hellofunk 9y ago
  If your typos are triggered by UI events, then you often won't see these problems until interacting with your UI (I work mainly in Clojurescript). Further, these typos may not get noticed at all for a long time if a code path is never taken. Of course, that's what unit tests are for. But writing tests takes time also. I'm not sure it's worth the trade off to spend the time writing those tests that I could spend writing in a more statically-typed language that would catch some things that tests wouldn't be needed for. (Besides, writing tests for UI stuff is pretty hard). I am griping, really, because I cannot stress enough how nice it feels most of the time to write Clojurescript. But in complex projects, there is not doubt that a lot of time gets spent on things that wouldn't need to be spent if the language had even a very basic type system to back up the syntax for some things.
  - keymone 9y ago
    which ui library are you using? not claiming to be an expert, but i always found it easier to test programs when logic is completely decoupled from event flow. but yeah, UI can be pita. also isn't clojure.spec useful for describing and asserting the shape of data taken and returned by functions?
    - hellofunk 9y ago

gldalmaso 9y ago

I really like Rich's views and find Clojure very interesting as well. That said, as a Java shop with Javascript frontend, nowadays the bulk of complexity in our code base seems to accumulate in the frontend due to mixed skill levels of the team and lack of opinionated structure in the language. This leads to some rather messy code that even skilled devs are afraid to touch because of lack of feedback from the IDE that some refactor is working without loose ends. The same problem with the same people just doesn't happen in the backend and I link that to static typing and IDE maturity. We have started to adopt Typescript and are seeing improvements already. We just have to live with the fact not all developers working in the code are mature enough to avoid language and code organization pitfalls. Refactoring should be mostly a safe endeavor, even if only structurally. This is the main reason I wouldn't suggest Clojure for our team.

hellofunk 9y ago
I agree that there is definitely added discipline needed to succeed well in large dynamically-typed projects. I also think that learning to build large projects in such languages is like running your marathon training high in the mountains, so when you get back to sea-level your body feels the joy. You are forced to write very clean code in Clojure if you want to easily maintain it later. That's a great skill that translates to any other language where less discipline might still get you far.
lilactown 9y ago
I think it's something else, as well. Rich even mentions it in his talk: languages like Java (which I'm reading to mean "statically typed") are great at mechanical tasks. Front end programming is mostly filled with mechanical tasks: scaffold this structure/layout. Wire up these events. Make this thing blue/bold/etc. Change the state when these events happen. It's fairly predictable in structure in line-of-business apps, at least once you're following an intelligent structure, e.g. the Elm architecture. UI/Front end dev, IMO, can gain quite a bit from static typing. I'm a huge fan of clojurescript, it's what I reach for whenever I want to work on something, but I'm super excited about ReasonML for the future of my team; we struggle with our JavaScript code base right now due to the lack of imposed structure and feedback for our weaker developers. I love Clojure and I think it makes sense in a lot of domains; most of my back end development is "take this data, transform it according to some nebulous business rules, and poop it out to some other place," which Clojure is amazing for. It's great for applications that don't require a lot of "wiring", and require a lot of "flow". UI programming is, for the most part, wiring things up. It's not that Clojure/Script is not up to the task (I think e.g. re-frame, and the stuff being done with Fulcro, is amazing) but I definitely see the benefits of static typing more in that domain. And like Rich said, if you're doing UI it will usually completely dominate the problem space you're working in. So pick the right tool for the job. I'm not convinced TypeScript is the way exactly, but like I said, ReasonML and Elm are super promising.

joncampbelldev 9y ago

I believe the quote you're referencing about monads is "this is meant to lull you into believing everything I say is true, because I can't use monads for that" (referring to an animation of a stick figure juggling)

whalesalad 9y ago

Gotta take the good with the bad. Tons of knowledge and wisdom to be gained from the FP folks but sometimes they do have the cheap shots and the bias of the community. Ie, It’s easy to hate and joke about things like SQL databases and JSON when you live in your own utopian fairy land where everything is Datomic and EDN.

sheepmullet 9y ago

> but found the type-system bashing pretty off-putting. Why do you think it is type system bashing? He is justifying why he didn't add types to Clojure. In his experience they add more complexity than they are worth. The reason he talks about it at all is there are a lot of static typing enthusiasts who talk about static typing being a game changer. In my experience static typing is a +-2-3% productivity influencer. You get a bit better IDE experience and refactoring is easier. On the other hand I've also found I need to refactor my C# code far more often than my Clojure code.