7 ms·

> who are you to say they will be "bored" or "twiddling their thumbs all day" ? But that's not the real reason. The reason is they are afraid because the exper

by rdtsc 9y ago

> who are you to say they will be "bored" or "twiddling their thumbs all day" ? But that's not the real reason. The reason is they are afraid because the experienced person can see through bullshit better. They are harder to fool and brainwash to work for free. With stuff like "There won't be a paycheck next month, but don't worry we are turning corner, once we exit you'll all drive Ferraris!", "We are changing the world, just need to finalize this feature by next week, so let's all work a little harder (and by all I mean you all)". Someone with experience will say something "Thanks but no thanks, I've heard this before" a new college graduate will say "Yay! Let's do it, I'll impress everyone with how little sleep I can get each night". And I am not being too hyperbolic here. I've heard from owners before confessing that hey love hiring college grads because they can drive them hard, they are full of enthusiasm and are not "tainted" by other corporations. Another friend from another startup, confessed that they like those take-home interview problems. Stuff like "Implement a distributed database over the weekend and show us the code on Monday during the interview". The reason is because they can get the really desperate and dedicated people willing to invest that much time into projects. As when crunch time comes, they'll need those "skills".

on_and_off 9y ago
Interesting, as a candidate I prefer the take home project because then I don't have to cram largely irrelevant knowledge.
- intended 9y ago
  Well apparently you have expendable weekends :)
  - pc86 9y ago
    So do you - it's just that your priorities are different. Which is totally fine, but let's not pretend there is a class of people who cannot possibly take 2-3 hours out of the next 48 to do something. With rare exception, they're just making the (completely reasonable, completely okay) choice not to. I am obviously only referring to programmers, knowledge workers etc.
    - intended 9y ago
      Hah. that sounds like my dad telling me I should get more out of my day! yes it’s entirely possible to be at a stage where you can’t pull more hours out of your sleep or other obligations to fulfill X task you truly want to. I really have a lot invested in believing it. Could you burn the candle at both ends ? Sure! But I the case that you already are, what more can you do? If you are a knowledge worker - and on HN, perhaps you do have the spare time. But if you are older - Do you need to take care of your family? Help around the house, sleep? Maybe not! But usually the older you are, the more likely it is that you don’t have those hours lying around to just burn a weekend at your convenience. Which supports the idea that this is going to be a request (take home exercises) that will favor one type of person. The person with the freedom to burn that time.
  - on_and_off 9y ago
    Really ? A very competent friend had to cram for months in order to pass the whiteboard interviews at one of the tech giants. I had to spend a Saturday on this test (it was scoped to be a 6 hours project, I spent the day on it with frequent and long pauses). My time investment is orders of magnitude lower what it would have been for a whiteboard.
- pmiller2 9y ago
  I do, too, when it's a substitute for on the spot grilling. I think the idea in the example is that is a massively over scoped project.
  - Chyzwar 9y ago
    A distributed database is ok as long you can assume reliable network and no partitions :P I do think that "homework" interview problems are better than pointless algo.
    - carlmr 9y ago
      Homework problems should be doable in the same time, just at home. If you present your results afterwards they can also be good to judge presentation skills.
    - richardknop 9y ago
      Distributed database seems like a quite complex project. Let's say I could do a minimal version of etcd using raft or paxos over the weekend but it would probably take most of my weekend's time, I think 10-20 hours work at least. That is not reasonable as a home work for job interview. Something which takes 2-3 hours is much more reasonable and I am willing to do that because it leaves me with enough time for family / life over the weekend or to do homework for few different companies to not put all my eggs into single basket when interviewing. If you are looking for a job you would rarely only concentrate on one opportunity. For sure you would try to compare at least 2-3 comparable jobs to choose the one which fits you best. So these sort of tests / home work assignments should be quite simple, probably algorithmic questions which can be completed in 50-100 lines of code.
      - KekDemaga 9y ago
        I think it depends on the applicant, I'm willing to do such a project but the prices I will demand if hired will be markedly higher than a firm that offered me a simpler project that consumed less time. The way I see it is you have limited the risk you have undertaken in hiring me thus I can see more of the fruits of my labor.
- baq 9y ago
  Have 3 kids. Take home interviews won't be happening for a while in my case.
- rdtsc 9y ago
  There is nothing wrong with that as long as you're aware of what that selection does. Just like the topic at hand, that kind of requirement is correlated with other characteristics, think young, fresh grad, not married probably, no kids, really wants the job, maybe a bit desperate, doesn't mind expending their free time etc. In some cases the companies are aware of what they are doing. They know it is not about the take-home test but about picking those types of candidates most of all, and they are ok not selecting the rest. This was my friend's company. In other cases, companies are not aware of it, they just copy what others are doing or say believe that this testing method is better, so use it strictly for that reason. Which is fine too, it might work for them better. However, they'll still end up selecting certain candidates and not others, but they just don't do it explicitly.
  - on_and_off 9y ago
    Last interview I had contained a take home test, it was for a senior position. The test was designed to be a 6 hours task. I spent a Saturday on it (with regular pauses to go out a bit, play games, watch tv, etc) I got the job. I have started there very recently so I can't really speak about the amount of work / week in that place. Again, compared to a very skilled friend who had to cram for 2 hours each evening for a couple of months (and speaking with other people I know having gone through that, it seems pretty standard), I really see my time investment as ridiculously less than an on-site whiteboard.
AnimalMuppet 9y ago
I think you're wrong. Sure, I won't buy the hype, and I won't pull the all-nighter, but I'll still get more stuff done than the people who do stay all night. I may tell you your schedule is unrealistic, but it was unrealistic whether I told you or not, and you won't make it realistic by sleep-depriving your new grads. Any owner who thinks they can get more real work done by driving a college grad hard than they can by hiring me is an owner who's short-changing their bottom line.
- rdtsc 9y ago
  > but I'll still get more stuff done than the people who do stay all night. I agree you. Was just presenting someone else's perspective. Don't think such things are usually shared or discussed so I found it interesting. I personally advocated for a more diverse team - more women, more age ranges, more cultural backgrounds, rather than just young college guys.
shostack 9y ago
It may be less nefarious than that. There may be legitimate concern that the employee is just looking for a short term paycheck while they look for something more senior. Most managers are probably not thrilled with the idea of investing in someone who may not even stay a year. Obviously it is more complicated than that. Just saying there could be legitimate concerns.
- ThomPete 9y ago
  Based on what?
  - setr 9y ago
    Based on the idea the overqualified implies the job role is beneath them, and assuming the job's requirements correlates to pay, then the person in question may find better pay, and thus leave, at any time (because they are already worth more than you're giving them, and more than what you're willing to give, given the role performed)
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      > Based on the idea the overqualified implies the job role is beneath them... So offer them the job and provide a path for more responsibility and pay as they prove themselves. I don't see the downside for the company. There's probably a downside for certain middle managers, I guess.
      - icebraining 9y ago
        What if the company doesn't need a role with more responsibility, at least in the short term?
        richardknop 9y ago
        I think if you can make a choice between a junior and senior engineer you'd take senior every time. Companies need senior people with experience. Lots of junior positions are the result of there not being enough experienced people to fill the roles so companies are trying to upskill junior people. At least that's my read on the situation. If I were a manager and I could choose between hiring somebody with 10 years experience and fresh college graduate I'd hire the experienced guy for sure (or hire them both). The only reason I can see why you would only hire junior is if your budget is limited (because of course the person with 10 years industry experience will require higher compensation than fresh graduate).
tomohawk 9y ago
This says more about those hiring than those being hired.
eloisant 9y ago
I'm not sure of that. A senior with ~15 years of experience (typically in his late 30s) doesn't accept this kind of bullshit but is still highly employable. Age discrimination probably starts close to 50 I think.

by rdtsc 9y ago

on_and_off 9y ago

Interesting, as a candidate I prefer the take home project because then I don't have to cram largely irrelevant knowledge.

intended 9y ago
Well apparently you have expendable weekends :)
- pc86 9y ago
  So do you - it's just that your priorities are different. Which is totally fine, but let's not pretend there is a class of people who cannot possibly take 2-3 hours out of the next 48 to do something. With rare exception, they're just making the (completely reasonable, completely okay) choice not to. I am obviously only referring to programmers, knowledge workers etc.
  - intended 9y ago
    Hah. that sounds like my dad telling me I should get more out of my day! yes it’s entirely possible to be at a stage where you can’t pull more hours out of your sleep or other obligations to fulfill X task you truly want to. I really have a lot invested in believing it. Could you burn the candle at both ends ? Sure! But I the case that you already are, what more can you do? If you are a knowledge worker - and on HN, perhaps you do have the spare time. But if you are older - Do you need to take care of your family? Help around the house, sleep? Maybe not! But usually the older you are, the more likely it is that you don’t have those hours lying around to just burn a weekend at your convenience. Which supports the idea that this is going to be a request (take home exercises) that will favor one type of person. The person with the freedom to burn that time.
- on_and_off 9y ago
  Really ? A very competent friend had to cram for months in order to pass the whiteboard interviews at one of the tech giants. I had to spend a Saturday on this test (it was scoped to be a 6 hours project, I spent the day on it with frequent and long pauses). My time investment is orders of magnitude lower what it would have been for a whiteboard.
pmiller2 9y ago
I do, too, when it's a substitute for on the spot grilling. I think the idea in the example is that is a massively over scoped project.
- Chyzwar 9y ago
  A distributed database is ok as long you can assume reliable network and no partitions :P I do think that "homework" interview problems are better than pointless algo.
  - carlmr 9y ago
    Homework problems should be doable in the same time, just at home. If you present your results afterwards they can also be good to judge presentation skills.
  - richardknop 9y ago
    Distributed database seems like a quite complex project. Let's say I could do a minimal version of etcd using raft or paxos over the weekend but it would probably take most of my weekend's time, I think 10-20 hours work at least. That is not reasonable as a home work for job interview. Something which takes 2-3 hours is much more reasonable and I am willing to do that because it leaves me with enough time for family / life over the weekend or to do homework for few different companies to not put all my eggs into single basket when interviewing. If you are looking for a job you would rarely only concentrate on one opportunity. For sure you would try to compare at least 2-3 comparable jobs to choose the one which fits you best. So these sort of tests / home work assignments should be quite simple, probably algorithmic questions which can be completed in 50-100 lines of code.
    - KekDemaga 9y ago
      I think it depends on the applicant, I'm willing to do such a project but the prices I will demand if hired will be markedly higher than a firm that offered me a simpler project that consumed less time. The way I see it is you have limited the risk you have undertaken in hiring me thus I can see more of the fruits of my labor.
baq 9y ago
Have 3 kids. Take home interviews won't be happening for a while in my case.
rdtsc 9y ago
There is nothing wrong with that as long as you're aware of what that selection does. Just like the topic at hand, that kind of requirement is correlated with other characteristics, think young, fresh grad, not married probably, no kids, really wants the job, maybe a bit desperate, doesn't mind expending their free time etc. In some cases the companies are aware of what they are doing. They know it is not about the take-home test but about picking those types of candidates most of all, and they are ok not selecting the rest. This was my friend's company. In other cases, companies are not aware of it, they just copy what others are doing or say believe that this testing method is better, so use it strictly for that reason. Which is fine too, it might work for them better. However, they'll still end up selecting certain candidates and not others, but they just don't do it explicitly.
- on_and_off 9y ago
  Last interview I had contained a take home test, it was for a senior position. The test was designed to be a 6 hours task. I spent a Saturday on it (with regular pauses to go out a bit, play games, watch tv, etc) I got the job. I have started there very recently so I can't really speak about the amount of work / week in that place. Again, compared to a very skilled friend who had to cram for 2 hours each evening for a couple of months (and speaking with other people I know having gone through that, it seems pretty standard), I really see my time investment as ridiculously less than an on-site whiteboard.

AnimalMuppet 9y ago

I think you're wrong. Sure, I won't buy the hype, and I won't pull the all-nighter, but I'll still get more stuff done than the people who do stay all night. I may tell you your schedule is unrealistic, but it was unrealistic whether I told you or not, and you won't make it realistic by sleep-depriving your new grads. Any owner who thinks they can get more real work done by driving a college grad hard than they can by hiring me is an owner who's short-changing their bottom line.

rdtsc 9y ago
> but I'll still get more stuff done than the people who do stay all night. I agree you. Was just presenting someone else's perspective. Don't think such things are usually shared or discussed so I found it interesting. I personally advocated for a more diverse team - more women, more age ranges, more cultural backgrounds, rather than just young college guys.

shostack 9y ago

It may be less nefarious than that. There may be legitimate concern that the employee is just looking for a short term paycheck while they look for something more senior. Most managers are probably not thrilled with the idea of investing in someone who may not even stay a year. Obviously it is more complicated than that. Just saying there could be legitimate concerns.

ThomPete 9y ago
Based on what?
- setr 9y ago
  Based on the idea the overqualified implies the job role is beneath them, and assuming the job's requirements correlates to pay, then the person in question may find better pay, and thus leave, at any time (because they are already worth more than you're giving them, and more than what you're willing to give, given the role performed)
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    > Based on the idea the overqualified implies the job role is beneath them... So offer them the job and provide a path for more responsibility and pay as they prove themselves. I don't see the downside for the company. There's probably a downside for certain middle managers, I guess.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      What if the company doesn't need a role with more responsibility, at least in the short term?
      - richardknop 9y ago
        I think if you can make a choice between a junior and senior engineer you'd take senior every time. Companies need senior people with experience. Lots of junior positions are the result of there not being enough experienced people to fill the roles so companies are trying to upskill junior people. At least that's my read on the situation. If I were a manager and I could choose between hiring somebody with 10 years experience and fresh college graduate I'd hire the experienced guy for sure (or hire them both). The only reason I can see why you would only hire junior is if your budget is limited (because of course the person with 10 years industry experience will require higher compensation than fresh graduate).

tomohawk 9y ago

This says more about those hiring than those being hired.

eloisant 9y ago

I'm not sure of that. A senior with ~15 years of experience (typically in his late 30s) doesn't accept this kind of bullshit but is still highly employable. Age discrimination probably starts close to 50 I think.