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I disagree, I see people fail learning programming over and over again. Even after three years completing a computer engineering degree, they struggle with how

by olavgg 9y ago

I disagree, I see people fail learning programming over and over again. Even after three years completing a computer engineering degree, they struggle with how a for loop works, (No this is not a joke in Europe). Learning to program takes a lot of dedication and focus. Which a lot of people have no interest in, it is just too much work and too difficult. Every student that takes a engineering degree here, have to have a class with introduction to coding. And everyone, except those few who enjoys computer science, says that class was the hardest class to pass by far compared to the rest. So I believe the opposite will happen. The demand for software developers will grow beyond our imagination.

swendoog 9y ago
I just can't share that optimism. I taught myself to code using youtube videos and books. There are 14 year olds on YouTube coding iOS video games in a matter of weeks. Combine that with the fact that big companies (like Google) release SDKs that make application development trivial, and you've got a recipe for the skill cap lowering along with wages.
- socialist_coder 9y ago
  Maybe you are both right? The new class of programmers that governments and Google want to train up from your average worker will not be as skilled or intelligent as the current generation of programmers. But, there are still opportunities for them in software development. They will take jobs that pay 40-60k a year, while the higher skilled and more intelligent programmers will be architects or leads who command much higher salaries.
- empath75 9y ago
  Making it easier to do some things we do with code today doesn’t mean there won’t be new hard problems to solve tomorrow.
- zjaffee 9y ago
  Do those apps that 14 year olds work on require an in depth understanding of how threads work? How different hardware components work together at scale? Most people with CS degrees never acquire the skillset to do such work, why should I believe that those who are trained via job training programs will be able to do so. I'd be more afraid of potential retraining of other highly skilled workers who want to switch careers than anything else. The skillset of building a personal website, or even a website for your small business should be something anyone can do, and will in no way impact the overall salary of software engineers in the future. Major companies will always need people who understand the computational sciences, as scale and complexity follow some of the same rules as entropy, in that they are always increasing. Additionally, the reason for high salaries is not a lack of engineers, it is that top companies have decided that it is in their best interest to outbid each other for top talent. In parts of the midwest, where there is less competition, engineers are already paid 50k a year.
  - colemannugent 9y ago
    >Do those apps that 14 year olds work on require an in depth understanding of how threads work? I am constantly surprised that when other CS students in my classes have zero idea how anything beyond the particular language we're learning works. Even in higher skill-level classes that require a fair amount of proficiency with the language if you asked what the length of the pointer they just properly used was all you would get is blank stares.
    - xfer 9y ago
      > "how anything beyond the particular language we're learning works. " and > "if you asked what the length of the pointer they just properly used was all you would get is blank stares" So what is it? It's a computer science program, not learn a dozen language's quirks and implementation detail that you use for a single class to understand some concept.
  - grigjd3 9y ago
    It's not that bad in the midwest. Salaries in the 70-80K range are common enough.
- nrhk 9y ago
  Having more code technicans is great. I'd love to have more people to help maintain shit, write documentation, do small bug fixes etc... There will be a differentiation between Engineers and Coders soon. Hooking up to a few different APIs, doing some JS and HTML does not count as engineering.
patorjk 9y ago
I've not only seen the same, I've seen people who actually work as developers who struggle with basic for-loops. I used to get worried when people rang alarm bells about jobs going overseas or there being an influx of developers into the market, but a large portion of the population seems to either just not be able to wrap their head around programming, or just not find it that interesting.

by olavgg 9y ago

swendoog 9y ago

I just can't share that optimism. I taught myself to code using youtube videos and books. There are 14 year olds on YouTube coding iOS video games in a matter of weeks. Combine that with the fact that big companies (like Google) release SDKs that make application development trivial, and you've got a recipe for the skill cap lowering along with wages.

socialist_coder 9y ago
Maybe you are both right? The new class of programmers that governments and Google want to train up from your average worker will not be as skilled or intelligent as the current generation of programmers. But, there are still opportunities for them in software development. They will take jobs that pay 40-60k a year, while the higher skilled and more intelligent programmers will be architects or leads who command much higher salaries.
empath75 9y ago
Making it easier to do some things we do with code today doesn’t mean there won’t be new hard problems to solve tomorrow.
zjaffee 9y ago
Do those apps that 14 year olds work on require an in depth understanding of how threads work? How different hardware components work together at scale? Most people with CS degrees never acquire the skillset to do such work, why should I believe that those who are trained via job training programs will be able to do so. I'd be more afraid of potential retraining of other highly skilled workers who want to switch careers than anything else. The skillset of building a personal website, or even a website for your small business should be something anyone can do, and will in no way impact the overall salary of software engineers in the future. Major companies will always need people who understand the computational sciences, as scale and complexity follow some of the same rules as entropy, in that they are always increasing. Additionally, the reason for high salaries is not a lack of engineers, it is that top companies have decided that it is in their best interest to outbid each other for top talent. In parts of the midwest, where there is less competition, engineers are already paid 50k a year.
- colemannugent 9y ago
  >Do those apps that 14 year olds work on require an in depth understanding of how threads work? I am constantly surprised that when other CS students in my classes have zero idea how anything beyond the particular language we're learning works. Even in higher skill-level classes that require a fair amount of proficiency with the language if you asked what the length of the pointer they just properly used was all you would get is blank stares.
  - xfer 9y ago
    > "how anything beyond the particular language we're learning works. " and > "if you asked what the length of the pointer they just properly used was all you would get is blank stares" So what is it? It's a computer science program, not learn a dozen language's quirks and implementation detail that you use for a single class to understand some concept.
- grigjd3 9y ago
  It's not that bad in the midwest. Salaries in the 70-80K range are common enough.
nrhk 9y ago
Having more code technicans is great. I'd love to have more people to help maintain shit, write documentation, do small bug fixes etc... There will be a differentiation between Engineers and Coders soon. Hooking up to a few different APIs, doing some JS and HTML does not count as engineering.

patorjk 9y ago

I've not only seen the same, I've seen people who actually work as developers who struggle with basic for-loops. I used to get worried when people rang alarm bells about jobs going overseas or there being an influx of developers into the market, but a large portion of the population seems to either just not be able to wrap their head around programming, or just not find it that interesting.