4 ms·

> It's the transverse expansion. If these are above ground, the top will heat up relative to the bottom. That's a nasty problem to solve while maintaining the s

> It's the transverse expansion. If these are above ground, the top will heat up relative to the bottom. That's a nasty problem to solve while maintaining the structural integrity to keep a giant vacuum with speeding capsules in place. Right... you can probably solve that with a bucket of white paint. Worst case you cover it with an aluminum shield- aluminum does not absorb infrared radiation and will reflect 99.9% of ambient heat. Since the proposal included covering large sections of the tube in solar panels that isn't even a significant change.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> you can probably solve that with a bucket of white paint. Worst case you cover it with an aluminum shield- aluminum does not absorb infrared radiation and will reflect 99.9% of ambient heat It's, unfortunately, harder than this. It's a similar problem to the ones we dealt with regarding rockets, standing fueled, on a pad. Both methods you propose were tried. The solution is to (a) paint it and (b) launch before the gradient becomes too big. The stresses on the Hyperloop tube, when a capsule is rushing through it while it's containing a near vacuum, are comparable to those on a rocket nearing max Q [1]. The difference is with a rocket we take great care to maintain symmetry. With the Hyperloop, that isn't an option. That persistent asymmetry is what makes it a difficult materials problem, particularly if we're using any known metals (even wonderful light and thermally-conductive aluminium). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Q https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Q
- hwillis 9y ago
  Dude, what. That's bullshit, and the size difference will be on the order of dozens or low hundreds of microns. Not only that, but the distortion will be spread evenly across the tube because it's a tube. You're just asserting that putting the tube in shadow will somehow not block heat from the sun. I'm also not sure you understand what I'm saying about an aluminum shield? Aluminum has an emissivity coefficient of .04. Thermal conductivity has nothing to do with it since it isn't touching the tube. It's purpose is just to not re-radiate infrared onto the tube.
  - kbenson 9y ago
    I think what we have here is someone applying a known problem and solution space for one industry (rocketry) to another (civil engineering). A large vertical tube that needs to move quickly and under great stress may not allow for the same solutions that apply to a large horizontal tube that is relatively static. Fixing a large enough solar shield above a rocket hundreds of feet in the air which has to get out of the way quickly before the rocket launches has very different requirements than fixing a shading structure above a vertical static structure a few tens of feet in the air. I'm not sure how this problem was solved in rocketry is necessarily indicative of how hard it is to solve in other circumstances.
    - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
      > I'm not sure how this problem was solved in rocketry is necessarily indicative of how hard it is to solve in other circumstances Very fair. The advantage a rocket has is you choose when it's rolled out. You don't have to design for the worst weather because you can always hide. You can't do that for a static structure. The Hyperloop is an attempt to marry the challenges of rocketry to the standards of civil engineering. The advantage is you don't have to think about aerodynamics, which is good, because air is the worst. (You also get civil-engineering budgets.) The bad is you can't hide from the edge cases. If you want to grapple with this problem live, rent (or borrow) a thermal camera and make a model. Aluminum or tin foil would probably work for something on the window. I've only done this upright, to simulate storing an unfuelled vehicle outdoors in "ready-to-launch" mode, but you'll run into similar problems with a horizonatal configuration. At first, the shade works. Then thermals develop. You can foam it, and that looks like it works for a few days. Then someone instruments the inside and, lo and behold, hot spots. Turns out foam doesn't really help with heat that recurs in the same place, day after day. (Our solution: slowly rotate it.) You could completely isolate the tube, which is what NASA does in its vehicle assembly building [1], but at that point you might as well (a) bury it or (b) have a fleet of Concordes flying on loop, because either will be cheaper. I'm not saying it's impossible. But it's much harder than the pressure problem, which is itself hard to get economical. If you want the tube above ground, I don't think it works with existing materials. My criticism of the Hyperloop One project is they didn't bother solving these issues with models. (Note: this is how Elon did it with the Falcon 1.) Instead, they decided to build a maglev track. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_Assembly_Building https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_Assembly_Building

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

> you can probably solve that with a bucket of white paint. Worst case you cover it with an aluminum shield- aluminum does not absorb infrared radiation and will reflect 99.9% of ambient heat It's, unfortunately, harder than this. It's a similar problem to the ones we dealt with regarding rockets, standing fueled, on a pad. Both methods you propose were tried. The solution is to (a) paint it and (b) launch before the gradient becomes too big. The stresses on the Hyperloop tube, when a capsule is rushing through it while it's containing a near vacuum, are comparable to those on a rocket nearing max Q [1]. The difference is with a rocket we take great care to maintain symmetry. With the Hyperloop, that isn't an option. That persistent asymmetry is what makes it a difficult materials problem, particularly if we're using any known metals (even wonderful light and thermally-conductive aluminium). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Q https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Q

hwillis 9y ago
Dude, what. That's bullshit, and the size difference will be on the order of dozens or low hundreds of microns. Not only that, but the distortion will be spread evenly across the tube because it's a tube. You're just asserting that putting the tube in shadow will somehow not block heat from the sun. I'm also not sure you understand what I'm saying about an aluminum shield? Aluminum has an emissivity coefficient of .04. Thermal conductivity has nothing to do with it since it isn't touching the tube. It's purpose is just to not re-radiate infrared onto the tube.
- kbenson 9y ago
  I think what we have here is someone applying a known problem and solution space for one industry (rocketry) to another (civil engineering). A large vertical tube that needs to move quickly and under great stress may not allow for the same solutions that apply to a large horizontal tube that is relatively static. Fixing a large enough solar shield above a rocket hundreds of feet in the air which has to get out of the way quickly before the rocket launches has very different requirements than fixing a shading structure above a vertical static structure a few tens of feet in the air. I'm not sure how this problem was solved in rocketry is necessarily indicative of how hard it is to solve in other circumstances.
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    > I'm not sure how this problem was solved in rocketry is necessarily indicative of how hard it is to solve in other circumstances Very fair. The advantage a rocket has is you choose when it's rolled out. You don't have to design for the worst weather because you can always hide. You can't do that for a static structure. The Hyperloop is an attempt to marry the challenges of rocketry to the standards of civil engineering. The advantage is you don't have to think about aerodynamics, which is good, because air is the worst. (You also get civil-engineering budgets.) The bad is you can't hide from the edge cases. If you want to grapple with this problem live, rent (or borrow) a thermal camera and make a model. Aluminum or tin foil would probably work for something on the window. I've only done this upright, to simulate storing an unfuelled vehicle outdoors in "ready-to-launch" mode, but you'll run into similar problems with a horizonatal configuration. At first, the shade works. Then thermals develop. You can foam it, and that looks like it works for a few days. Then someone instruments the inside and, lo and behold, hot spots. Turns out foam doesn't really help with heat that recurs in the same place, day after day. (Our solution: slowly rotate it.) You could completely isolate the tube, which is what NASA does in its vehicle assembly building [1], but at that point you might as well (a) bury it or (b) have a fleet of Concordes flying on loop, because either will be cheaper. I'm not saying it's impossible. But it's much harder than the pressure problem, which is itself hard to get economical. If you want the tube above ground, I don't think it works with existing materials. My criticism of the Hyperloop One project is they didn't bother solving these issues with models. (Note: this is how Elon did it with the Falcon 1.) Instead, they decided to build a maglev track. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_Assembly_Building https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_Assembly_Building