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There is a very big aspect that people overlook in this conversation. There is what is known as the "dialect of power" and in the US that is Standard American

There is a very big aspect that people overlook in this conversation. There is what is known as the "dialect of power" and in the US that is Standard American English. It's not necessarily "wrong" to speak AAVE but in doing so, you will disqualify yourself from opportunities that could otherwise be open to you based on your education and/or experience. If someone calls you to schedule a job interview and you don't sound the way you're expected to sound when you speak, they'll mentally cross you off of the short list before you ever cross the threshold of their place of business. As an African American man, I'll admit that when I'm exclusively in the presence of other black people, I'll code switch and speak in a way that I never would at work or in mixed company. I have a very Anglicized name and I speak Standard American English. As a result of that, people who haven't previously met me in person are sometimes surprised to learn that I'm not a white guy. Being inclusive is a worthy goal but I think that education should stress the importance of speaking Standard American English because it's necessary to do so if one wants to be successful in this society.

wokeland 9y ago
David Foster Wallace wrote about the relationship between Standard Written English and social power structures in America. See "Authority and American Usage" or its reprint in Harper's, "Tense Present".
Pharylon 9y ago
Sure, but lots of people code switch. As a southern white guy, I also don't speak on interviews the same way I do to my friends. Even around other southerns, you want to "turn it down" in a professional setting. I don't think there's any danger of English teachers not pushing standard American English. Mastering it does open doors. But I think we should also learn about other dialects, because in learning about them we learn more about language. I also think reducing the stigma of certain dialects is a good thing.
- bluthru 9y ago
  >I don't think there's any danger of English teachers not pushing standard American English. I wouldn't be surprised if things get out of hand in California and English is seen as optional in some school districts in the future. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_58_(2016) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_58_(201...
  - mrkurt 9y ago
    Overturning a silly restrictive proposition isn't anywhere close to "not gonna bother to teach people english". I know it's fun to stand on slippery slopes, but don't.
- alexasmyths 9y ago
  'Southern English' is 'Standard American English' :) It's just an accent, not a dialect :)
  - foldr 9y ago
    Not really, there are distinct grammatical features (e.g. y'all). There's nothing wrong with that, of course. But it is certainly an accurate use of linguistic terminology to describe Southern American English (which obviously has internal variation also) as a separate dialect or group of dialects.
nielsbot 9y ago
Relevant and interesting (when talking about the dialect of power): https://www.thsppl.com/thsppl-articles/2017/4/20/its-not-about-race-1 https://www.thsppl.com/thsppl-articles/2017/4/20/its-not-abo...
mabbo 9y ago
You shouldn't have to. I recently started a role where I work very closely with a guy from southern Kansas. He speaks with an accent that I would associate with hicks, farmers, non-intellectuals. And true to form, he was raised on a farm. But he's smart, hard working and great to work with. Every day that we work together, I'm learning things that I wouldn't have otherwise understood. No one criticizes him for speaking with his dialect of English. He doesn't have to code switch. He speaks the way he speaks, he's understood and respected. That's what's different about AAVE. It's not just that it's not the dialect of power, it's a dialect people seem to go out of their way to not respect.
- drivingmenuts 9y ago
  > He speaks with an accent that I would associate with hicks, farmers, non-intellectuals. Having an accent isn't the same as speaking a dialect. For example, many Indians speak correct English, but their accent renders them near unintelligble. As a Texan, I'm always going to have a Texas accent, unless I take pains to minimize it. But I can easily switch to standard English, y'all.
  - LordKano 9y ago
    Sometimes, you have to do the needful to get ahead at work.
- garrettdc 9y ago
  The article isn't discussing accents, but rather differences in vocabulary and grammar between two dialects. There is a difference "He isn't going to do anything about it" with an accent and saying "He ain't gon' do nothin' bout it."
  - disantlor 9y ago
    is there that much of a difference? how much? poster used the word "accent" but to my mind that includes regional variations in the language, not just the sonics.
specialist 9y ago
I think it makes perfect sense. My friends and family all speak deferently at home. Just off the top of my head: Greek, Norwegian, Vietnam, China, Punjabi, Native American, Iran, Ireland, Latino, British... A coworker is from South Carolina, his kids tease him about his accent whenever he talks to family (“talking country”). Seems perfectly normal. Heck, I probably have my own dialect (Heinz 57) and don’t even know it. No, scratch that, I can generally tell when I’m talking to another local.
throwaway30yo 9y ago
As a Canadian with a thick Newfoundland accent (which is not exactly considered an intellectual way of talking), I feel that I can relate to talking differently when with people from Newfoundland. I have had to learn how to limit my accent. Growing up in public Canadian schools we took language classes to minimize this accent. While these courses are no longer ran, I am thankful that I was able to take them.
weberc2 9y ago
I largely agree. It's worth noting that there are lots of dialects (not sure if this is the proper term) in the U.S. besides AAVE that are perceived as uneducated, including my own native low-class rural dialect. At least in the case of my dialect, I would guess that whether or not you can speak SAE is a pretty good indicator of educational background, for better or worse. I wonder if this has been studied?
mycoborea 9y ago
FWIW, I grew up in an Irish/Italian working-class fishing town in New England. I definitely speak differently at home vs. at work the biotech industry, and I don't mean profanity-wise, I mean accent-wise and grammatically as well. I would certainly sound "lower class" to certain people if I spoke this way at work or at a job interview. I suspect many of my colleagues who come from a similar class background would do the same.
Balgair 9y ago
I'll echo some of the other commentors here on accents. I grew up in the East Bay of SF and we have SAE, an Okie accent from our dustbowl migrant forefathers, and a valley-girl/surfer twang too. I speak SAE in mixed company, the Okie with older relatives, the 'surfer' accent with close friends and family of my generation, and SAE when nieces, nephews and other children are around during holidays. We would prefer the next generation either develop their own accents or forget ours. I would not dare use anything but SAE with co-workers, bosses, or customers around. As many transplants to the Bay are on HN, it may surprise you that the people that grew up around you, even in SF Bay, have accents they do not share with you around. What is more interesting is the lexigraphic and accented differences between places like SF, the south Bay, Napa, and even Sacramento. It's not easy, but within a few minutes, I think I can still place the speaker from one of those location, though with the younger generation I may just be BSing.
hprotagonist 9y ago
I'm going to top-post this, but this argument is _precisely_ the one made by david foster wallace in "authority and american usage", and it is bang-on correct.

wokeland 9y ago

David Foster Wallace wrote about the relationship between Standard Written English and social power structures in America. See "Authority and American Usage" or its reprint in Harper's, "Tense Present".

Pharylon 9y ago

Sure, but lots of people code switch. As a southern white guy, I also don't speak on interviews the same way I do to my friends. Even around other southerns, you want to "turn it down" in a professional setting. I don't think there's any danger of English teachers not pushing standard American English. Mastering it does open doors. But I think we should also learn about other dialects, because in learning about them we learn more about language. I also think reducing the stigma of certain dialects is a good thing.

bluthru 9y ago
>I don't think there's any danger of English teachers not pushing standard American English. I wouldn't be surprised if things get out of hand in California and English is seen as optional in some school districts in the future. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_58_(2016) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_58_(201...
- mrkurt 9y ago
  Overturning a silly restrictive proposition isn't anywhere close to "not gonna bother to teach people english". I know it's fun to stand on slippery slopes, but don't.
alexasmyths 9y ago
'Southern English' is 'Standard American English' :) It's just an accent, not a dialect :)
- foldr 9y ago
  Not really, there are distinct grammatical features (e.g. y'all). There's nothing wrong with that, of course. But it is certainly an accurate use of linguistic terminology to describe Southern American English (which obviously has internal variation also) as a separate dialect or group of dialects.

nielsbot 9y ago

Relevant and interesting (when talking about the dialect of power): https://www.thsppl.com/thsppl-articles/2017/4/20/its-not-about-race-1 https://www.thsppl.com/thsppl-articles/2017/4/20/its-not-abo...

mabbo 9y ago

You shouldn't have to. I recently started a role where I work very closely with a guy from southern Kansas. He speaks with an accent that I would associate with hicks, farmers, non-intellectuals. And true to form, he was raised on a farm. But he's smart, hard working and great to work with. Every day that we work together, I'm learning things that I wouldn't have otherwise understood. No one criticizes him for speaking with his dialect of English. He doesn't have to code switch. He speaks the way he speaks, he's understood and respected. That's what's different about AAVE. It's not just that it's not the dialect of power, it's a dialect people seem to go out of their way to not respect.

drivingmenuts 9y ago
> He speaks with an accent that I would associate with hicks, farmers, non-intellectuals. Having an accent isn't the same as speaking a dialect. For example, many Indians speak correct English, but their accent renders them near unintelligble. As a Texan, I'm always going to have a Texas accent, unless I take pains to minimize it. But I can easily switch to standard English, y'all.
- LordKano 9y ago
  Sometimes, you have to do the needful to get ahead at work.
garrettdc 9y ago
The article isn't discussing accents, but rather differences in vocabulary and grammar between two dialects. There is a difference "He isn't going to do anything about it" with an accent and saying "He ain't gon' do nothin' bout it."
- disantlor 9y ago
  is there that much of a difference? how much? poster used the word "accent" but to my mind that includes regional variations in the language, not just the sonics.

specialist 9y ago

I think it makes perfect sense. My friends and family all speak deferently at home. Just off the top of my head: Greek, Norwegian, Vietnam, China, Punjabi, Native American, Iran, Ireland, Latino, British... A coworker is from South Carolina, his kids tease him about his accent whenever he talks to family (“talking country”). Seems perfectly normal. Heck, I probably have my own dialect (Heinz 57) and don’t even know it. No, scratch that, I can generally tell when I’m talking to another local.

throwaway30yo 9y ago

As a Canadian with a thick Newfoundland accent (which is not exactly considered an intellectual way of talking), I feel that I can relate to talking differently when with people from Newfoundland. I have had to learn how to limit my accent. Growing up in public Canadian schools we took language classes to minimize this accent. While these courses are no longer ran, I am thankful that I was able to take them.

weberc2 9y ago

I largely agree. It's worth noting that there are lots of dialects (not sure if this is the proper term) in the U.S. besides AAVE that are perceived as uneducated, including my own native low-class rural dialect. At least in the case of my dialect, I would guess that whether or not you can speak SAE is a pretty good indicator of educational background, for better or worse. I wonder if this has been studied?

mycoborea 9y ago

FWIW, I grew up in an Irish/Italian working-class fishing town in New England. I definitely speak differently at home vs. at work the biotech industry, and I don't mean profanity-wise, I mean accent-wise and grammatically as well. I would certainly sound "lower class" to certain people if I spoke this way at work or at a job interview. I suspect many of my colleagues who come from a similar class background would do the same.

Balgair 9y ago

I'll echo some of the other commentors here on accents. I grew up in the East Bay of SF and we have SAE, an Okie accent from our dustbowl migrant forefathers, and a valley-girl/surfer twang too. I speak SAE in mixed company, the Okie with older relatives, the 'surfer' accent with close friends and family of my generation, and SAE when nieces, nephews and other children are around during holidays. We would prefer the next generation either develop their own accents or forget ours. I would not dare use anything but SAE with co-workers, bosses, or customers around. As many transplants to the Bay are on HN, it may surprise you that the people that grew up around you, even in SF Bay, have accents they do not share with you around. What is more interesting is the lexigraphic and accented differences between places like SF, the south Bay, Napa, and even Sacramento. It's not easy, but within a few minutes, I think I can still place the speaker from one of those location, though with the younger generation I may just be BSing.

hprotagonist 9y ago

I'm going to top-post this, but this argument is _precisely_ the one made by david foster wallace in "authority and american usage", and it is bang-on correct.