7 ms·

I see so many negative comments about this, but in my opinion everything has to start somewhere. It doesn't matter how crazy and impossible it looks, it will be

by batrat 9y ago

I see so many negative comments about this, but in my opinion everything has to start somewhere. It doesn't matter how crazy and impossible it looks, it will be done eventually (and we have plenty of examples). Maybe we will not teleport in 2 seconds across the globe or this project will die, who knows if we don't try. A little bit of optimism doesn't hurt. Just saying. And for Virgin, it's not my money, if they want to invest in a black hole sure they can.

rco8786 9y ago
Right. Could you imagine what people thought/said around the advent of commercial airliners or heck, even automobiles?
- TremendousJudge 9y ago
  Or turbojet trains[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbojet_train https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbojet_train
  - pavel_lishin 9y ago
    Or Ekranoplans[2] [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekranoplan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekranoplan
    - mrguyorama 9y ago
      or flying cars, or jetpacks, or a million other ideas that just had "engineering problems" that were supposed to revolutionize transportation.
- wallace_f 9y ago
  My favorite historical example of this is that of the nautical screw. Orwell mentions it in one of his lesser-known essays when discussing the problems with arguing about economics(1). >"When the nautical screw was first invented, there was a controversy that lasted for years as to whether screw-steamers or paddle-steamers were better. The paddle-steamers, like all obsolete things, had their champions. Finally, however, a distinguished admiral tied a screw-steamer and a paddle-steamer of equal horsepower stern to stern and set their engines running. That settled the question once and for all. And it was something similar that happened on the fields of Norway and of Flanders [referencing economic questions]." 1 - www.orwell.ru/library/essays/lion/english/e_saw
kaolti 9y ago
Totally with you.
sschueller 9y ago
I'm not saying it can't work and we shouldn't try our best. However from what I have seen so far I am quite disappointed as even known issues aren't addressed at all. As if the people involved are blindly going at it instead of working with people who know something about pressure vessels etc. Sure sometimes you need an outside perspective but not like this.
- felipelemos 9y ago
  Care to elaborate?
  - LaikaF 9y ago
    Thunderf00t has a good video on the problems with it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNFesa01llk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNFesa01llk He has some other good videos (solar roadways) but tends to spend to much time bashing creationists.
    - johnking 9y ago
      Thanks for the video reccomendation, super interesting.
Gustomaximus 9y ago
So much this. Especially when people chime in with some minor detail means it will fail because clearly 'must not have thought of it' if they didnt mention in some 400 word press release. Its like Elon going into trucking and people saying the range isn't sufficient. The guy is pretty darn smart. I'm confident he understands trucking range and has some solutions, and simply isn't discussing it for secrecy and/or succinctness.
- Avshalom 9y ago
  Yeah but in this case every solution appears to be turning it into a normal train so we aren't even getting anything novel out of it anymore.
- cowsandmilk 9y ago
  > if they didnt mention in some 400 word press release. There's a lot of in depth criticism of hyperloop based on Elon's 57 page paper. It is hardly a case of gut reactions to 400 word press releases.
christophilus 9y ago
It's been said before elsewhere, but HN is the place to go to find out why your project will never succeed. I've seen many successful projects crapped all over here when they were in their infancy / pre-success days. "Stripe?! 3% fees! So dumb. We already have lots of payment gateways. It's not hard. You just have to {list of many tedious manual steps}..."
- ferdbold 9y ago
  My favorite is Dropbox. "Store all my personal and/or corporate files on some third-party server?! DOA."
  - aswanson 9y ago
    I remember that thread. Hilarious.
    - KGIII 9y ago
      One of my favorites is on Slashdot. If you go there and search for 'VMware' then you can find it. When VMware was first announced and demoed, the commenters at Slashdot declared things like it was fake, it was stupid, it was a waste, it would never work, or that dual booting was a better solution. They largely concluded that virtual machines weren't a thing and happily congratulated themselves for their brilliant insights. I'm on a tablet or I'd dig the link out for you. It's one of my favorite discussion threads on the Internet.
      - aswanson 9y ago
        Thanks, I really need to check that one out.
        KGIII 9y ago
        I never tell people that they 'need' to do something, so I'll say I highly suggest you do. So, to make it easier for you - I've grabbed a laptop and dug out the link: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/99/02/11/0939233/multiple-oss-concurrently#comments https://tech.slashdot.org/story/99/02/11/0939233/multiple-os... I absolutely encourage anyone/everyone to read the linked comments. It's one of my favorite examples when a number of discussions come up. My preferred time to reference it is when people say things like, "Slashdot used to be so much better!" Or when they say things like, "We had much better commentary back in the day!" No, no they did not. In fact, it was never as good as people recall it being. That is kind of what makes it so wonderful and why I love discussion sites. I am, by no means, innocent or superior. ;-)
simias 9y ago
Your types of comment annoy me more than harsh criticism frankly, at least criticism can be constructive, your comment is just fluff. I mean, let's apply your logic to its logical conclusion: we should never criticize anything, ever, on the off chance it could end up working and then people would look back on our comments and call us silly. On that note I'm just starting a gofundme to create my own interplanetary travel agency, don't forget to donate. Yeah, HN was wrong about dropbox (although some of the criticism was a lot more specific and arguably accurate than some make it up to be). Now let's fetch the comment threads about color.com, about google plus, about the ubuntu phone, about whatever other failed product we've already long forgotten about. If HN is wrong about hyperloop, so what? You'll be able to gloat about it in a few decades from your supersonic train seat. In the meantime there are real, practical questions that need answering and that's a much more interesting discussion than "wow this is so coool" or "I wonder what Elon Musk's armpits taste like". Do you think that the Hyperloop One folks are going to read this thread and give up on the project? "Well, looks like we were wrong, shut down everything folks". I can get this argument for a small startup of one or two young entrepreneurs but for some reason I don't expect Virgin Group to be that insecure.
- QAPereo 9y ago
  I only wish that HN was similarly skeptical about near-term Mars colonization. For a group of largely smart, educated people, too many are willing to suspend disbelief for a sufficiently charismatic person, or out of desperation.
- wellboy 9y ago
  Strawman
ravenstine 9y ago
My instinct tells me negative comments aren't actually coming from the direction of "stupid idea! can't be done!". This isn't to say there aren't significant engineering roadblocks to the Hyperloop, but I don't think that's the root of the negativity. People are pointing out the glaring flaws in the Hyperloop idea, not because they can't or won't believe that crazy ideas are possible, but in reaction to the media's reaction to Elon Musk's PR. Surely I'm not the only one who wants to upchuck every time that Musk makes a claim and the media drools all over whatever he says. It even goes beyond the media itself but how the public reacts to how the media reports Musk. Otherwise smart people I've met have likened Musk to a modern day Edison, or even Tesla. Musk's companies have achieved great things, but he has more in common with Barnum than famous inventors. Testing impossible ideas is wonderful. Musk's PR being inflated by the media, creating an audience of believer sycophants, is a different story and I really don't mind people blowing holes in the Hyperloop theory if the newsprint-spewing public isn't going to get that from technology reporters. I'd bet Hyperloop critics actually like the idea at one level or another, and hate to see such ideas looked at with pollyanna eyes.
- ghostly_s 9y ago
  He operates the first-ever successful private spaceflight company. (You can quibble with this but it's something close to the truth). Likening him to Barnum is a little insulting.
  - ravenstine 9y ago
    That's not something I would contest, and I don't think I implied such a position. I(and presumably others) actually like impossible ideas but dislike the rampant lack of skepticism in the direction of Musk, therefore criticism of his company's proposals is justified and not necessarily coming from the direction of "it can never work". Likening him to Barnum would perhaps paint him as a little more nefarious than Musk actually is, but I wouldn't consider that insulting. The man was a master promoter. But perhaps he's not a good analogue because their "products" are very different. People liken Musk to Edison, and they did both own technology companies that produced innovations, but that's where the similarity ends.
lmm 9y ago
> It doesn't matter how crazy and impossible it looks, it will be done eventually (and we have plenty of examples). Or it won't. Most companies fail, I expect most ideas do too. > A little bit of optimism doesn't hurt. Just saying. Yes and no. Optimism is worthwhile but realism is important too. It's cool that private companies are pursuing these ideas and I wish them all the best, but when I see people claiming that e.g. California's high speed rail is overpriced/pointless because of hyperloop then I want to scream. We shouldn't let our enthusiasm over these hyped ideas detract from implementing the more pedestrian approaches that are proven to work and address our very immediate needs.

by batrat 9y ago

rco8786 9y ago

Right. Could you imagine what people thought/said around the advent of commercial airliners or heck, even automobiles?

TremendousJudge 9y ago
Or turbojet trains[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbojet_train https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbojet_train
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  Or Ekranoplans[2] [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekranoplan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekranoplan
  - mrguyorama 9y ago
    or flying cars, or jetpacks, or a million other ideas that just had "engineering problems" that were supposed to revolutionize transportation.
wallace_f 9y ago
My favorite historical example of this is that of the nautical screw. Orwell mentions it in one of his lesser-known essays when discussing the problems with arguing about economics(1). >"When the nautical screw was first invented, there was a controversy that lasted for years as to whether screw-steamers or paddle-steamers were better. The paddle-steamers, like all obsolete things, had their champions. Finally, however, a distinguished admiral tied a screw-steamer and a paddle-steamer of equal horsepower stern to stern and set their engines running. That settled the question once and for all. And it was something similar that happened on the fields of Norway and of Flanders [referencing economic questions]." 1 - www.orwell.ru/library/essays/lion/english/e_saw

kaolti 9y ago

Totally with you.

sschueller 9y ago

I'm not saying it can't work and we shouldn't try our best. However from what I have seen so far I am quite disappointed as even known issues aren't addressed at all. As if the people involved are blindly going at it instead of working with people who know something about pressure vessels etc. Sure sometimes you need an outside perspective but not like this.

felipelemos 9y ago
Care to elaborate?
- LaikaF 9y ago
  Thunderf00t has a good video on the problems with it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNFesa01llk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNFesa01llk He has some other good videos (solar roadways) but tends to spend to much time bashing creationists.
  - johnking 9y ago
    Thanks for the video reccomendation, super interesting.

Gustomaximus 9y ago

So much this. Especially when people chime in with some minor detail means it will fail because clearly 'must not have thought of it' if they didnt mention in some 400 word press release. Its like Elon going into trucking and people saying the range isn't sufficient. The guy is pretty darn smart. I'm confident he understands trucking range and has some solutions, and simply isn't discussing it for secrecy and/or succinctness.

Avshalom 9y ago
Yeah but in this case every solution appears to be turning it into a normal train so we aren't even getting anything novel out of it anymore.
cowsandmilk 9y ago
> if they didnt mention in some 400 word press release. There's a lot of in depth criticism of hyperloop based on Elon's 57 page paper. It is hardly a case of gut reactions to 400 word press releases.

christophilus 9y ago

It's been said before elsewhere, but HN is the place to go to find out why your project will never succeed. I've seen many successful projects crapped all over here when they were in their infancy / pre-success days. "Stripe?! 3% fees! So dumb. We already have lots of payment gateways. It's not hard. You just have to {list of many tedious manual steps}..."

ferdbold 9y ago
My favorite is Dropbox. "Store all my personal and/or corporate files on some third-party server?! DOA."
- aswanson 9y ago
  I remember that thread. Hilarious.
  - KGIII 9y ago
    One of my favorites is on Slashdot. If you go there and search for 'VMware' then you can find it. When VMware was first announced and demoed, the commenters at Slashdot declared things like it was fake, it was stupid, it was a waste, it would never work, or that dual booting was a better solution. They largely concluded that virtual machines weren't a thing and happily congratulated themselves for their brilliant insights. I'm on a tablet or I'd dig the link out for you. It's one of my favorite discussion threads on the Internet.
    - aswanson 9y ago
      Thanks, I really need to check that one out.
      - KGIII 9y ago
        I never tell people that they 'need' to do something, so I'll say I highly suggest you do. So, to make it easier for you - I've grabbed a laptop and dug out the link: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/99/02/11/0939233/multiple-oss-concurrently#comments https://tech.slashdot.org/story/99/02/11/0939233/multiple-os... I absolutely encourage anyone/everyone to read the linked comments. It's one of my favorite examples when a number of discussions come up. My preferred time to reference it is when people say things like, "Slashdot used to be so much better!" Or when they say things like, "We had much better commentary back in the day!" No, no they did not. In fact, it was never as good as people recall it being. That is kind of what makes it so wonderful and why I love discussion sites. I am, by no means, innocent or superior. ;-)

simias 9y ago

Your types of comment annoy me more than harsh criticism frankly, at least criticism can be constructive, your comment is just fluff. I mean, let's apply your logic to its logical conclusion: we should never criticize anything, ever, on the off chance it could end up working and then people would look back on our comments and call us silly. On that note I'm just starting a gofundme to create my own interplanetary travel agency, don't forget to donate. Yeah, HN was wrong about dropbox (although some of the criticism was a lot more specific and arguably accurate than some make it up to be). Now let's fetch the comment threads about color.com, about google plus, about the ubuntu phone, about whatever other failed product we've already long forgotten about. If HN is wrong about hyperloop, so what? You'll be able to gloat about it in a few decades from your supersonic train seat. In the meantime there are real, practical questions that need answering and that's a much more interesting discussion than "wow this is so coool" or "I wonder what Elon Musk's armpits taste like". Do you think that the Hyperloop One folks are going to read this thread and give up on the project? "Well, looks like we were wrong, shut down everything folks". I can get this argument for a small startup of one or two young entrepreneurs but for some reason I don't expect Virgin Group to be that insecure.

QAPereo 9y ago
I only wish that HN was similarly skeptical about near-term Mars colonization. For a group of largely smart, educated people, too many are willing to suspend disbelief for a sufficiently charismatic person, or out of desperation.
wellboy 9y ago
Strawman

ravenstine 9y ago

My instinct tells me negative comments aren't actually coming from the direction of "stupid idea! can't be done!". This isn't to say there aren't significant engineering roadblocks to the Hyperloop, but I don't think that's the root of the negativity. People are pointing out the glaring flaws in the Hyperloop idea, not because they can't or won't believe that crazy ideas are possible, but in reaction to the media's reaction to Elon Musk's PR. Surely I'm not the only one who wants to upchuck every time that Musk makes a claim and the media drools all over whatever he says. It even goes beyond the media itself but how the public reacts to how the media reports Musk. Otherwise smart people I've met have likened Musk to a modern day Edison, or even Tesla. Musk's companies have achieved great things, but he has more in common with Barnum than famous inventors. Testing impossible ideas is wonderful. Musk's PR being inflated by the media, creating an audience of believer sycophants, is a different story and I really don't mind people blowing holes in the Hyperloop theory if the newsprint-spewing public isn't going to get that from technology reporters. I'd bet Hyperloop critics actually like the idea at one level or another, and hate to see such ideas looked at with pollyanna eyes.

ghostly_s 9y ago
He operates the first-ever successful private spaceflight company. (You can quibble with this but it's something close to the truth). Likening him to Barnum is a little insulting.
- ravenstine 9y ago
  That's not something I would contest, and I don't think I implied such a position. I(and presumably others) actually like impossible ideas but dislike the rampant lack of skepticism in the direction of Musk, therefore criticism of his company's proposals is justified and not necessarily coming from the direction of "it can never work". Likening him to Barnum would perhaps paint him as a little more nefarious than Musk actually is, but I wouldn't consider that insulting. The man was a master promoter. But perhaps he's not a good analogue because their "products" are very different. People liken Musk to Edison, and they did both own technology companies that produced innovations, but that's where the similarity ends.

lmm 9y ago

> It doesn't matter how crazy and impossible it looks, it will be done eventually (and we have plenty of examples). Or it won't. Most companies fail, I expect most ideas do too. > A little bit of optimism doesn't hurt. Just saying. Yes and no. Optimism is worthwhile but realism is important too. It's cool that private companies are pursuing these ideas and I wish them all the best, but when I see people claiming that e.g. California's high speed rail is overpriced/pointless because of hyperloop then I want to scream. We shouldn't let our enthusiasm over these hyped ideas detract from implementing the more pedestrian approaches that are proven to work and address our very immediate needs.