5 ms·

I normally wouldn't weigh in here, since I am the furthest thing possible from an expert, but after even a little dabbling in meditation I can see some major mi

by lukev 9y ago

I normally wouldn't weigh in here, since I am the furthest thing possible from an expert, but after even a little dabbling in meditation I can see some major misconceptions in the other comments. It isn't about being bored, or about any of the benefits that may or may not occur. Meditation is a useful discipline because it is about training the mind to (a) become conscious of and "reify" individual thoughts and sensations, and (b) direct and maintain attention consciously, rather than the usual unconscious process by which our minds flit from thought to thought. Once you have these skills you can (presumably) use them for other things and to achieve various effects. But it starts there.

mercer 9y ago
In regards to (a), isn't it more about not reifying your thoughts and sensations? This might be semantics though; I do agree that the path of not becoming a slave to thoughts and sensations starts with acknowledging them.
- lukev 9y ago
  Yes, I meant acknowledging thoughts as "things" which you can observe, pay attention to or ignore as you will.
  - mercer 9y ago
    Perhaps I reified my interpretation the word reify a bit too much :-).
- danielbarla 9y ago
  Semantics or not, that's actually a very important topic. From my limited understanding, the meditation approach would be to firstly notice the thought or sensation, but then to neither repress nor necessarily express the emotion further or get carried away with it. The rationale being that repression is a short term band-aid that does not allow for resolution of the issue, and can also be a way to conveniently trick yourself into ignoring important things (which you might want to be considering / processing). On the other hand, you also don't want to get further into the emotion, as it may add fuel to the fire (like getting carried away with stories in your mind about what you should have responded with during an argument, etc). So, there's some kind of balancing act there. So reify might actually be a good word, although it may go to far, as you pointed out.
  - visarga 9y ago
    Drawing parallels between meditation and reinforcement learning, I have realized that those thoughts we are supposed not to sustain (about the future and past) are simulations. We do model-based RL in our heads, simulating (imagining) future events in our minds, in order to adapt. So mindfulness is telling us not to simulate, and instead, just to perceive.
rem1313 9y ago
Yes, my thoughts exactly (not an expert as well). It was eye-opening for me, if only for just the technique to understand how the mind works and how it can be directed more productively
moretai 9y ago
>Once you have these skills you can (presumably) use them for other things and to achieve various effects. But it starts there. They said the same thing about brain exercises like Luminosity. The brain is way more complex, and you can't just hack your way to becoming the ultimate programmer. Perhaps there are legitamate factors that lead to unproductive and stressed out workers.
- lukev 9y ago
  Well there are at least two differences: - There are a lot of scientific studies (however dubious, see the original post) about the effects of meditation: there are none about Luminosity. - Meditation has been practiced for millennia with entire cultures and philosophies built around it. Luminosity is a 6-year-old app with a good marketing team. Neither of these things are definitive proof of course. But I think they are evidence (in the Bayesian sense) that there might be something there. The cool thing about meditation though, is that while I'd want to wait for scientific evidence before "prescribing" it broadly, there's no barrier to an individual trying it out themselves. You'll either get something out if it or you won't. If you do, sure, it could be the placebo effect, but as has been pointed out, even if meditation is nothing more than a deliberate activation of the placebo effect, that's a pretty cool result.
  - visarga 9y ago
    Just don't make your life about feeling a placebo effect, however cool, it should be just a curiosity, not a life purpose. If the meditator wants just to meditate and doesn't care to improve his studies, career or to have a family, 20 years later it would lead to a sad realization. You can't fill your stomach with prana and emptiness won't be your wife. We're living, breathing bodies, not just pure consciousness that is one with everything.
    - lukev 9y ago
      ...what are you even responding to?
  - WalterSear 9y ago
visarga 9y ago
> become conscious of and "reify" individual thoughts and sensations Those reified concepts (such as the 'Self') are useful in daily life. They are just concepts, abstractions that don't perfectly model reality, but they have their utility. Even the meditation practices need to be explained conceptually first, a paradoxical situation because we need concepts to go beyond concepts. Approximations are useful. By the way, an anecdote: there is one meditation where you just ask yourself "Who am I?" and then wait and sense what you feel is your I-ness. By being mindful of that during all activities, it leads to a state beyond conceptual thinking, where the question "Who am I" becomes meaningless.

by lukev 9y ago

mercer 9y ago

In regards to (a), isn't it more about not reifying your thoughts and sensations? This might be semantics though; I do agree that the path of not becoming a slave to thoughts and sensations starts with acknowledging them.

lukev 9y ago
Yes, I meant acknowledging thoughts as "things" which you can observe, pay attention to or ignore as you will.
- mercer 9y ago
  Perhaps I reified my interpretation the word reify a bit too much :-).
danielbarla 9y ago
Semantics or not, that's actually a very important topic. From my limited understanding, the meditation approach would be to firstly notice the thought or sensation, but then to neither repress nor necessarily express the emotion further or get carried away with it. The rationale being that repression is a short term band-aid that does not allow for resolution of the issue, and can also be a way to conveniently trick yourself into ignoring important things (which you might want to be considering / processing). On the other hand, you also don't want to get further into the emotion, as it may add fuel to the fire (like getting carried away with stories in your mind about what you should have responded with during an argument, etc). So, there's some kind of balancing act there. So reify might actually be a good word, although it may go to far, as you pointed out.
- visarga 9y ago
  Drawing parallels between meditation and reinforcement learning, I have realized that those thoughts we are supposed not to sustain (about the future and past) are simulations. We do model-based RL in our heads, simulating (imagining) future events in our minds, in order to adapt. So mindfulness is telling us not to simulate, and instead, just to perceive.

rem1313 9y ago

Yes, my thoughts exactly (not an expert as well). It was eye-opening for me, if only for just the technique to understand how the mind works and how it can be directed more productively

moretai 9y ago

>Once you have these skills you can (presumably) use them for other things and to achieve various effects. But it starts there. They said the same thing about brain exercises like Luminosity. The brain is way more complex, and you can't just hack your way to becoming the ultimate programmer. Perhaps there are legitamate factors that lead to unproductive and stressed out workers.

lukev 9y ago
Well there are at least two differences: - There are a lot of scientific studies (however dubious, see the original post) about the effects of meditation: there are none about Luminosity. - Meditation has been practiced for millennia with entire cultures and philosophies built around it. Luminosity is a 6-year-old app with a good marketing team. Neither of these things are definitive proof of course. But I think they are evidence (in the Bayesian sense) that there might be something there. The cool thing about meditation though, is that while I'd want to wait for scientific evidence before "prescribing" it broadly, there's no barrier to an individual trying it out themselves. You'll either get something out if it or you won't. If you do, sure, it could be the placebo effect, but as has been pointed out, even if meditation is nothing more than a deliberate activation of the placebo effect, that's a pretty cool result.
- visarga 9y ago
  Just don't make your life about feeling a placebo effect, however cool, it should be just a curiosity, not a life purpose. If the meditator wants just to meditate and doesn't care to improve his studies, career or to have a family, 20 years later it would lead to a sad realization. You can't fill your stomach with prana and emptiness won't be your wife. We're living, breathing bodies, not just pure consciousness that is one with everything.
  - lukev 9y ago
    ...what are you even responding to?
- WalterSear 9y ago

visarga 9y ago

> become conscious of and "reify" individual thoughts and sensations Those reified concepts (such as the 'Self') are useful in daily life. They are just concepts, abstractions that don't perfectly model reality, but they have their utility. Even the meditation practices need to be explained conceptually first, a paradoxical situation because we need concepts to go beyond concepts. Approximations are useful. By the way, an anecdote: there is one meditation where you just ask yourself "Who am I?" and then wait and sense what you feel is your I-ness. By being mindful of that during all activities, it leads to a state beyond conceptual thinking, where the question "Who am I" becomes meaningless.